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Thread: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

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    Exclamation When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    When its with scan:

    http://forums.hexus.net/scan-care-he...ml#post2270937

    Quote (my bold):

    "Officially a product has to be returned before the warranty period expires, however if proof can be shown that at least the product was returned within the warranty period then we may still accept the RMA."

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    Much better title than mine lol

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    So Scan doesnt mind loosing a customer over a £10 battery charger that they can probably return anyway, and cost them like what? £4?

    Interesting...

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    I dont understand that sentence, the first part is easy as it means they have to receive it before the warranty ends but the second half... basically says if you can prove they received it before it ended you are ok... wth? Surely thats the same thing.

    Scans RMA are normally a month i thought, the fact is the item failed within the warranty period and a claim was made in that time, you should have had until the 29th of jan to send it back by... makes you think twice about shopping at scan if thats the case!.
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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    Oh dear that doesnt sound right at all, I was always under the impression that as long as you reported the defect before warranty expired then you could send it back, not that they need the item back before warranty expires... daft.


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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    Rather than replace, Scan could always give the guy a refund minus benefit received, which would equate roughly to 50p, no?

    But that's a whole different kettle fish

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    Thanks for letting me know.

    I raised a recent motherboard fault and was wandering the same thing. As scan have yet to reply I'll have to assume it's not going anywhere then, since I reported it within warranty but I think it's now drifted outside of warranty.

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks12 View Post
    I dont understand that sentence, the first part is easy as it means they have to receive it before the warranty ends but the second half... basically says if you can prove they received it before it ended you are ok... wth? Surely thats the same thing.

    ....
    I'd agree the sentence isn't written in the clearest way, but I'm assuming what was meant that "returning the product", as in shipping it, within the warranty period proves it's failed within the warranty period, even if it wasn't received within 1in that period.

    i.e.

    Dec 10th product dies
    Dec 11th item shipped
    Dec 14th warranty expires
    Dec 16th Product arrives at Scan

    In that case, it died and was returned within the warranty period, though it didn't arrive at Scan within the warranty period.

    Assuming that's what Scan meant, then yeah, perhaps it would have been clearer in the way it was worded, but it seems entirely logical, and not at all unreasonable, to me.



    One other thing they mentioned is that under the Sales of Goods Act, items should be of satisfactory quality and I can still pursue them for a remedy otherwise, this is something separate from the warranty and since the item in question wasn’t used that much and broke within a year, I am pretty sure it is not of satisfactory quality! I told Scan this last week and no more replies.
    I wouldn't rely too much on that, either.

    Yes, you have Sale of Goods Act rights but that satisfactory quality stipulation applies if and only if the goods failed due to a problem inherent at time of sale. And that "inherent" bit will give you a problem.

    Basically, why did something that failed, fail?

    If it's due to inappropriate use, neglect, misuse, accidental damage, etc, then they aren't liable. If it;s due to poor design, inferior materials that failed, faulty components, etc, then they are.

    The problem is that after 6 months, you have to prove the fault was inherent, or the presumption, by stature, is that it was not. And that may well require getting an independent (designated by the court) expert to inspect and report. And you get to pay for that report, and while you might get that cost back if you take legal action and win, you'll need to win or you're out of pocket not just to the tune of £10 for the product that failed, and your legal fees and expenses, but probably £100 or more for the report, too.

    In theory, the SoGA gives you some protection. In practice, well, I'd have to be awfully angry to risk those costs over a £10 product. Pragmatically, it isn't worth the cost of fighting it, let alone the time and hassle, over £10.

    So, "vent" is about all you can do, and to be honest, I can't quite grasp what Scan have done wrong, other than fail to meet your expectations, or what you assumed they would do, because Amazon do it. Scan aren't Amazon.

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    But Saracen, as I have posted elsewhere, what happens if the item fails on the last day of the warranty period, you are left high and dry?

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    Perhaps it serves as confirmation bias, but after my experiences with scan recently (oh, and its still not resolved, checked up last week to find out they only just sent the PSU to antec after I asked them to in early NOVEMBER (if you dont count when I asked them in october), this is pretty unsurprising.

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    ChrisP has now confirmed that you do not get a full 12 month warranty:http://forums.hexus.net/scan-care-he...ml#post2272373

    "We have now fixed in place that as long as an RMA number has been issued by SCAN ... AND ... Proof of the Return can be given that the product was returned BEFORE the warranty has expired, which starts from the Invoice Date then the RMA will be honoured."

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    guys .. if you buy somthing say a tv it go's boom after 14 months .. you can still ask for a refund or exchange .. it's called "fit for purpose" and it lasts up to 5 yrs ..
    things like a psu ,vid card cpu should be covered
    because all are expected to last longer than 5 yrs .. it could be an upward struggle but the law is on your side ..
    ok yeah you may need a independent report .. but there easy to get ..
    have done this twice once with comet after tv went .. 2 1/2 yrs .. a board went in tv ..
    and my bike piston went so had it fixed ...15 months ..
    Last edited by flearider; 25-01-2012 at 11:57 AM.

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    Quote Originally Posted by flearider View Post
    guys .. if you buy somthing say a tv it go's boom after 14 months .. you can still ask for a refund or exchange .. it's called "fit for purpose" and it lasts up to 5 yrs ..
    things like a psu ,vid card cpu should be covered
    because all are expected to last longer than 5 yrs .. it could be an upward struggle but the law is on your side ..
    ok yeah you may need a independent report .. but there easy to get ..
    have done this twice once with comet after tv went .. 2 1/2 yrs .. a board went in tv ..
    and my bike piston went so had it fixed ...15 months ..
    Actually, technically, that's wrong in several ways.

    First, the principle he'd rely on is "satisfactory quality", not "fit for purpose", that latter being a part, but only a part, of the former.

    "Fitness for purpose" means that, with limits, the buyer is entitled to expect goods to be suitable for a purpose for which they're commonly used, or a purpose for which he has made clear to the seller he wishes to use them. For instance, an umbrella would be expected to be used to keep rain off. That is implicit in the nature of the goods, and the purpose for which they're currently used. But you couldn't expect to use it to jack up your car to change a tyre ... unless you told the seller that;s what you wanted it for and he sold it to you anywayt, and even then, it'd almost certainly fail on the reasonableness test.

    I'll give a more technically-oriented example. If you go into a computer shop, and want to buy a component like a processor, then a lot depends on exactly what you say.

    1) If you say "I want an Intel Core i7 2600" and the shop sell you one, you have no case to argue if it then wont fit your AMD motherboard, or even if you have an Intel motherboard with the wrong socket. It is fit for purpose.

    2) On the other hand, if you say I want a processor for my AMD <insert model number> motherboard, and they sell you an Intel Core i7 2600, then it isn't fit for purpose, even though there is nothing at all wrong with the processor itself.

    In other words, a product can be absolutely non-faulty, and still not for purpose. And a product may be fit for purpose, and still fail, because it is not of satisfactory quality.

    There are limits to that, though. You are relying on the expertise of the seller in a fitness for purpose claim, and that reliance must be reasonable, and you must be reasonable in relying on it. If you inspect the product, and that inspection did or reasonably should have revealed the non-fitness, you're going to have a job claiming over it later. If you buy a second-hand car and negotiate a discount on the basis that the clutch feels dodgy, you're going to have an uphill battle trying to convince a court that you have a claim if the clutch fails altogether a week after you bought it, just because it costs you more than the discount you negotiated.

    The moral of that story is that you're sometimes better off to have not inspected, than to have inspected and not done a careful, proper job of it.

    Next, "5 years". In England and Wales, it's 6 years. It's different in Scotland, where it is 5 years, but from a different start point to England and Wales. In either case, though, it's a lot more than 12 months.

    Third, if you bought a TV and it goes "boom" after 14 months, you can ask for a refund or exchange, but you are NOT necessarily entitled to demand one, under the Sale of Goods Act. It will depend why it went boom. And the burden will be on you to prove , to a court, that that "why" is within the scope of the SoGA, not the seller to prove it isn't. If you cannot prove that the fault was due to something inherent n the set at time of sale, you will not have a claim. For instance, it might have gone boom because you plugged it into the wrong mains supply, or because you used a lead with the wiring wrong, or because you accidentally poured a cup of coffee down the insides, or dropped it down the stairs when moving it.

    It "going boom" does not automatically entitle you to a refund/replacement. The "why" is critical, and it is you to prove. And by the way, even if you can prove it, any refund is subject to ta deduction for the use you've had out of it, on a pro-rata basis, so it may well not be a full refund of the purchase price.

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    True. I think the issue here is the buying of a warranty alongside the product (as in, included with the price of the product). This is afaik separate from the issue of fit for purpose - the warranty is a separate, advertised, product which gives you different entitlements to the Sales of Goods Act. If you buy a product with a 12 month warranty then I would expect you to be provisioned for as per the terms of the warranty when you bought it. It's a service provision that completely separately from your statutory rights says the shop will replace or refund etc. as per the warranty contract.

    If there is an issue here, it might be an accusation that a retailer is not fulfilling their contractual obligations in the warranty (I haven't read the details). Not whether the goods are fit for purpose (which might or might not be applicable as well).

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    So:

    A 12 month (edit, add) Scan warranty is for 12 months out of retailer's possession (or proven in transit to retailer) and not 12 months of use from sale date.

    Wow!
    Last edited by doyll49; 25-01-2012 at 01:20 PM.

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    Re: When is a 12 month warranty not a 12 month warranty?

    Quote Originally Posted by blueball View Post
    But Saracen, as I have posted elsewhere, what happens if the item fails on the last day of the warranty period, you are left high and dry?
    The absolute arbiter of this will be exactly what Scan's warranty says.

    Bear in mind, you have two sets of possible protections :-

    - statutory rights (like the Sale of Goods Act
    - optional ones, like a shop warranty.

    The first category are mandated by law and the shop have no option to comply, and no way to avoid them. But in this case, for the reasons I gave above, I think you're wasting your time on them, especially over £10. But you might have a case, and might win it, if you fought it. But given the costs and hassle, is it worth it? In my view, no, but it's a subjective decision, and your to make, not mine. I probably wouldn't bother, but whether you will is up to you. I will say that some years ago, a shop got me so annoyed in the way they treated me that I opted to go that route and take court action, even though it was only that sort of amount. But I was, in my view at least, absolutely on solid ground and it would have been a very perverse court decision had it not gone my way. The shop had been rude in the extreme, and arrogant with it, probably assuming I'd bluster and threaten, and then just drop it, like 99.99% of such cases (made-up statistic, by the way).

    They were wrong. They ignored phone calls, they ignored a total of three polite but increasingly firm warning letters. They then got the court papers served. I said I'd take it to court and I meant it. They then settled, including all my costs, and the court fees, without letting it get to court.

    But I was so incensed by their attitude that it wasn't about the money by then, and to be honest, I didn't care much if I won or lost. I just wanted either a victory, or the pleasure of seeing them squirm and try to justify their actions before the judge. They apparently didn't fancy that, and I got everything I wanted.

    But I have to say, my actions weren't entirely rational, and were certainly driven by anger. I was, I'm convinced, dead right, but it still was driven by anger.


    That brings me to the second set of protections I mentioned, that being optional warranties. The basic position there (as I understand it, and as I've said before, I'm not a lawyer) is that you get whatever protection the warranty the shop offers, and no more. There are some laws governing such warranties, not least that if you knew of a warranty and relied on it, then it's usually legally enforceable. They must also be in plain, intelligible English, not legal hieroglyphics, etc. But essentially, you get the extent of coverage they offer, and under the terms they stipulate.

    So they can stipulate that you have to have returned to goods within 12 months, ..... or within 6 months if that's what they offer. Contrary to popular belief, there is no legally mandated 12 month shop warranty period. And they can offer the extent of cover they wish. A tailor I use offers a full 3-month warranty on (non-sale) goods you buy regardless of their condition when you sent them back. They used to say that they might be sent back because of cigar burns or the dog chewed them, and you'd be covered. You won't get that protection from statute in any country on earth that I'm aware of. Of course, they're making a point that they won't try to weasel out of the warranty on a technicality, and I suspect wouldn't be best-pleased if someone did return something the dog had chewed, but they do cover it, and you could legally enforce it. Nice to know if you buy and expensive suit and have dogs.

    Anyway, the point is ..... a shop warranty covers you for what it says it does. It cannot limit or avoid statutory rights, but if Scan's warranty says you have to have returned goods within the warranty period, then that's what you have to do, regardless of what you or anyone else may have thought, or assumed.

    I've had my arguments with Scan. Chris and I had a quite public dispute on here over Scansure, for instance. I still don't like the way that's marketed, and I doubt they much like what I said. So I'm no Scan apologist, or even that much of a fan.

    But I still can't see what they've done wrong.

    You had and reported a fault. They issued an RMA, and as I read it, it had a time limit and a reasonable one. For your reasons, an legitimate as they are, you didn't respond within a quite reasonable time period. Had they given you 30 minutes, or even a day, to notice and respond to the RMA, I'd agree you have a point and they were acting unreasonably. But they didn't, and the time period seems reasonable to me.

    Suppose I bought something, say a monitor, and I reported a fault before the 12 months expired, and they issued an RMA. How long after that RMA expired can I go back and try to reactivate it? A day? A week? 8 days? Two weeks? A month? 6 months?

    They have a cut-off line, and if they for over it for one person, the next person is going to say, not without justification, that they only went over it a little bit more. You got a week outside the terms of the warranty, so I'd be aggrieved if they rejected mine 8 days after it. After all, they did yours after a week, and mine is only a single day different. The next person will want two weeks, because, hey, they did 8 days. The one after that will want a month, or whatever.

    I haven't seen Scan's warranty, or read the terms of it, but I'd say that's your only real option, if it were to be the case that they're not acting in accordance with the warranty you relied on. But they will have to be acting outside what the warranty says, not what you thought or assumed it said. I've certainly no reason to suppose they're doing anything beyond (or less than) the warranty obliges them to, and unless they are, I can't see what they're doing wrong.

    All they appear to be doing is sticking to the terms of the warranty, and while it may (and has been) be argued that that isn't good from a PR perspective, it's also true that not everything that's good for PR is good for the company. In any event, that's their call.

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