Recent Bad Ebuyer Experience

[DeludedGuy]

The objection, as I understand it, is that you select a delivery method, costing £x.

Then, you select a payment method, and as a result, both the delivery method and the cost are simply changed for you. Yes, the total updates, but if you aren't watching, you might well not notice.

All it needs is a dialog box to appear when you select PayPal IF normal RM delivery was selected, saying something like "that payment method is incompatible with your selected delivery option. Do you wish the delivery method to be updated (at additional cost) or do you wish to use a different payment method".

The complaint, as I understand it, is that having selected the delivery method, it's changed for you and extra cost incurred without the buyer being told.

If, as part of a purchase process, you select something, it should not then EVER be just changed, and extra cost incurred, without you agreeing explicitly. It should never be done by something just updating and you get to pay for it if you don't notice.

Imagine you buy a few bits of groceries in a supermarket, and ask for a free plastic bag. The shop say yes, sure. Then, decide themselves to put it in a canvas bag because they're out of free plastic ones, and they then charge your credit card an extra £5. Would you be happy if they then said .... "but the customer display clearly showed the extra £5. Didn't you notice it?"

Or would you expect them to say "We're out of free bags, sir. Would you like a canvas one, at £5?"

You might prefer to just carrying your purchases yourself, or maybe you could do with a canvas bag anyway. Either way, it should be YOUR decision to add to your purchases, when you are the one paying for it, not have a shop do it for you if you don't spot what they did.

You are trying to paint a picture of frustration with your supermarket analogy which is unfair.

To unpack and re-pack all of the items in a supermarket would be far more time consuming and frustrating, not to mention you have to look around the shop for your £5 bag signs whilst also talking to the cashier. On-line shopping consists of looking at your monitor in the comfort of your home, double checking the the total price and clicking the pay/confirm button.

If the total doesn't seem right I wont click the pay button until having reviewed my basket.

Out of interest, I decided to go through the same steps Andaho went through and selected PayPal as the payment option and the price is clearly visible at the top, further to this when you select the payment methods it adjusts the price immediately clearly showing you that the payment method affects the price and delivery - in my case selecting PayPal REDUCES my shipping costs you are then redirected to PayPal, and then redirected back to ebuyer where you review the total price AGAIN.

[Saracen]

No analogy is perfect.That's why it's an analogy. And the bits you mention aren't the point I was making.

Which was, you select an option. They then change that for you, without telling you let alone asking, and you hsve to notice that they've done it.

Having selected RM delivery at £1.50, I do NOT expect that to change without being specifically told.

Otherwise, what else can they change without tellng you?

As for whether you noticed, well, as it's a test, you would notice. You're thinking oc it, aware it might change. Whether you'd notice if it was late at night, you're tired, and are just doing a quick transaction, is another matter.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that when you have selected an option in a purchase process, it will remain unchanged unless either you change it, or you are told it hss been changed.

As a central part of the process of forming a contract is the intent to be bound, it could even be argued that unilaterally changing what the buyer selected without telling them undermines or destroys that intent, and if thst were held to be fundamental go the contract, would invalidate the whole contract.

Buyers should not have their decisions arbitrarily changed without it at least being explicitly brought to their attention.

It is also possible (though wasn't the case with Andaho) that RM as a delivery method was specifically chosen because nobody would be in to sign. The buyer might well have chosen, had the situation been pointed out, to have changed payment method rather than delivery method.

Sellers simply should not unilaterally change the decisions the buyer has already made without explicitly getting agreement to do so.

All they had to do was point it out, and ask! Simplez, you'd think.

[DeludedGuy]

Saracen, you have completely missed the point, contrary to what Andaho is trying to say, ebuyer does not change anything, it is the buyer who selects the payment and delivery options and in doing so is immediately presented with the final adjusted total cost, which is why your analogy is wrong in this case. I just tried his steps and can record a video if you so wish to demonstrate how clear it is.

The total is always and immediately and clearly updated to reflect the options the buyer has selected, unlike in your analogy.

[Andaho]

Saracen, you have completely missed the point, contrary to what Andaho is trying to say, ebuyer does not change anything, it is the buyer who selects the payment and delivery options and in doing so is immediately presented with the final adjusted total cost, which is why your analogy is wrong in this case. I just tried his steps and can record a video if you so wish to demonstrate how clear it is.

The total is always and immediately and clearly updated to reflect the options the buyer has selected, unlike in your analogy.

Saracen hasn't missed the point, he's hit the nail right on the head.

I have already said many times that the total price changed - but it's not easy to notice unless you are looking for it.... Just like if a cashier at a supermarket scanned through a canvas bag costing £5 without you knowing, then getting home and looking at the receipt and noticing the charge for the first time.

You're the one that's missing the point... But as I already said, we all have our own opinions on what is right and what is wrong. - it's your opinion that I am in the wrong for complaining, and it's my opinion that I am in the right for complaining... and if such a situation was to go through any court of law, I would be proved correct. - But again, that's just my opinion

[Saracen]

Saracen, you have completely missed the point, contrary to what Andaho is trying to say, ebuyer does not change anything, it is the buyer who selects the payment and delivery options and in doing so is immediately presented with the final adjusted total cost, which is why your analogy is wrong in this case. I just tried his steps and can record a video if you so wish to demonstrate how clear it is.

The total is always and immediately and clearly updated to reflect the options the buyer has selected, unlike in your analogy.

I have not missed the point, and I don't need a video, because I know what happens, as I tried it myself.

I selected an item , ordered it and selected the £1.51 delivery method.

I then went to the checkout, and selected PayPal. Without asking me, the delivery method was amended to a signed-for method, and the charge increased, exactly as Andaho said.

I was NOT asked if I wanted the delivery method changed, and was NOT informed that my choice of Paypal had changed the delivery method had been changed, without my knowledge or approval. It was just done, by eBuyer.

The total on the page did change, and the words "signed for" appeared, which was the ONLY notification, but blink, and you'd miss the screen update.

This is exactly as Andaho reported, when I asked, twice I think, for clarification and is exactly as I understood it.

So let's be clear.

I selected the £1.51 delivery. And that was accepted.

When I said to use Paypal, the delivery method was changed WITHOUT either my permission, or explicitly telling me, and if I didn't notice the brief flicker as the total changed and "signed for" appeared, then I'd end up with a delivery method that was NOT what I selected, and I was being charged for a more expensive service I hadn't asked for, without being asked or even told it had been done.

So my earlier comment stands.

If you select a level of service, it should NOT be changed, and the costs increased, by the supplier, without them asking the buyer. I asked for one delivery service, and eBuyer changed it without my permission, and pretty much tripled the cost. It is very much analgous to a shop deciding to put your goods in a better bag, and charge you for it, without bothering to ask if you want that better bag.

If eBuyer are going to change the delivery method because of the payment method chosen, which is precisely what they did, they damn well ought to point out that that payment method requires that, that it will cost more, and ask.

[DeludedGuy]

That does not happen when I go through the same steps, I can't replicate what you are talking about, I need proof.

[Andaho]

That does not happen when I go through the same steps, I can't replicate what you are talking about, I need proof.

I think you're Deluded, Guy

But maybe they have been quick to fix it if it's different now...

Off subject slightly, what software do you use to record the screen? - I've tried camstudio (an open source screen recorder)... it worked great, but the file size was huge! and I couldn't get any video codecs working with it properly to have a compressed video... I found it just a bit non-user friendly.... I tried converting the huge video in adobe media encoder, but it didn't convert properly with the audio out of sync and skipping frames.

[Saracen]

That does not happen when I go through the same steps, I can't replicate what you are talking about, I need proof.

Are you using an established account? If so, maybe it's something in either in your account history or your account settings.

If so, create a new account and try it. Perhaps, if your account has a history of several successful deliveries, then maybe eBuyer let you pay by PayPal without requiring their "merchant protection", and if so, it wouldn't trigger the "signed for required" condition. So you wouldn't see the action we're talking about.

The only other thing I can suggest that may be different is the item selected. I picked a low value item, costing about £20, and one small and light enough to be deliverable in an envelope that would fit through a letter box.

I would assume that either too high a value, or too big a weight or physical size, would prevent normalRM delivery.

I can also certainly understand why eBuyer would have a different policy for new-ish accounts to established ones. For very small and relatively cheap items, say, £20, getting a £5 delivery charge is a significant disincentive to buy, which they'd rather avoid.

On the other hand, shipping such an item to a customer with a good previous ordering history is a significantly different level of risk to doing to one with either a minimal history, or even worse, a new customer.

If, and I repeat IF, that's why you're getting a different result to Andaho's actual order, and my simplistic system test, then I can certainly understand why eBuyer would do it and can't fault what they do .... merely how they do it.

Which comes to asking, or at an absolute minimum, informing, the customer that they're choice of payment method will change both the delivery option selected and the cost of it. But right now, at least for my test account, they just override and chane my the delivery option I selected without telling me it's changed, increase the cost without telling me they're doing it, and increase the overall total, merelychanging theamount and adding the words "signed for".

Andaho, two questions ....

- is your account a relatively new one, or with few completed orders?
- have you (or anyone else for that matter) told eBuyer about this thread?

They may have a policy about not discussing such things on forums, seeing as how it can get out of hand easily, but if they have a view on this, or an explanation, it'd be helpful to hear it.

[Saracen]

....

But maybe they have been quick to fix it if it's different now...

....

It wasn't fixed as of late last night. My test took place within an hour or so of the date/time of my descripion of it, a post or two back.

[DeludedGuy]

Yes, it's an established account with ebuyer, I also have a verified account with PayPal. The item I selected was Crucial £18 RAM stick.

I had none of those issues, maybe it is something with new accounts - if possible I will try to create a new account later which may prove to be tricky as I would need to create a new PayPal account too.

[Andaho]

Andaho, two questions ....

- is your account a relatively new one, or with few completed orders?
- have you (or anyone else for that matter) told eBuyer about this thread?

1. Nope, had the account for half a dozen years and been at the same address the whole time... Same with Paypal being a verified account for many many years... But I think it was probably the first time I had used paypal on eBuyer.

2. Nah, I'm finished with the issue now and not interested in 'helping' eBuyer... I'm just still following the thread for interesting reading

[Saracen]

Yes, it's an established account with ebuyer, I also have a verified account with PayPal. The item I selected was Crucial £18 RAM stick.

I had none of those issues, maybe it is something with new accounts - if possible I will try to create a new account later which may prove to be tricky as I would need to create a new PayPal account too.

Well, up to you, of course, but is it worth the bother, especially if the issue is dead to Andaho?

I can assure you it happened with me exactly as Andaho described, and as I did, but it seems there's something meaning it doesn't always do it.

Maybe it's having a history of successful orders paid for with Paypal?

And, if you built that history with orders where either size, weight or value meant the unsigned delivery wasn't an option, and therefore already had that history when trying the first order that would have triggered it, you wouldn't have seen it then, either.

Maybe that's why eBuyer support didn't seem to understand the nature of the problem, if it only occurs in very specific situations like that.

Anyway, like Andaho, I'm about done with it. It happened as Andaho described when I tested it, and that's enough for me. Anything else now is speculation, unless eBuyer choose to comment.

[dacads]

Looks like eBuyer has gone downhill

[Diablo944]

I know this in an old thread and i apologise upfront for dragging it out of the ground, but the post is relevant.
I just backed out of a buy on ebuyer for the issue of postage. All over the site there is the comment of free postage on items over 49.99 (iirc). So the item i wanted to buy at sixty quid qualifies. I added it to the basket, went through everything up to the paypal payment then spotted the box that suddenly advises that 'further charges may be applied'. I hate anything that says further charges 'may be' applied when it doesnt tell you at the time what they are or if you can bail 'before' committing. Either way, the free postage no longer applies and this additional part to the process along with the unspecified postage cost being added (at the point i pulled out and cancelled any order details there was no clue to cost) caused me to abandon any thought of buying from ebuyer. Moreover, as a paypal payment user i doubt i will ever be using ebuyer again.

I have only posted this as my first action after the failed buy was to google ebuyer paypal postage and it brought me here. I dont know if i will be allowed to post the pic of the screen grab section as this is my first post, but i will give it a try.

Regardless of the situation, i can get the same item off ebay with free postage and from what i have seen it will work out about two quid more expensive than ebuyer. I would rather pay that extra two quid than complete using ebuyer as i feel that buying from them now makes this whole free postage, oh no, not free postage situation seem acceptable, which to me it isnt.

If you are going to tout free postage, make it clear that its only for certain payment systems and do that at the start, not at the bit where you are about to finish the order.

Sorry, cant add the pic, has to be a url and i cant be bothered finding somewhere online to post the pic just for this.

Quick update. Found the item i wanted to buy from ebuyer with another seller, sixty quid and free (genuinely free) postage, so its actually ended up cheaper than it would have been from ebuyer

[compuguide]

To add this to this old thread, I think it may help others:
All I wanted was an 8GB RAM module @ £31.54, but wanted to pay with PayPal.
I was also concerned about the open ended statement 'further charges may be applied'.
Now the interesting part is that the postage, if I used my debit card, was about £1.50.
Selecting PayPal as the payment option, brought up the warning message as discussed in this thread, but the postage disappeared! i.e. the price dropped back to the original £31.54.
I have checked my PayPal statement and see the same amount on there.

I'm not sure how this works but I'm not complaining.

[Pob255]

I think Saracen has summed it up quite well here.

The objection, as I understand it, is that you select a delivery method, costing £x.

Then, you select a payment method, and as a result, both the delivery method and the cost are simply changed for you. Yes, the total updates, but if you aren't watching, you might well not notice.

All it needs is a dialog box to appear when you select PayPal IF normal RM delivery was selected, saying something like "that payment method is incompatible with your selected delivery option. Do you wish the delivery method to be updated (at additional cost) or do you wish to use a different payment method".

The complaint, as I understand it, is that having selected the delivery method, it's changed for you and extra cost incurred without the buyer being told.

If, as part of a purchase process, you select something, it should not then EVER be just changed, and extra cost incurred, without you agreeing explicitly. It should never be done by something just updating and you get to pay for it if you don't notice.

Although I'd put forward a 2nd option to fix this, by simply putting a dialogue of the delivery options, so when you select the cheap RM option it come up with a warning saying this option is not compatible with paypal payment and you will be upgraded to the signed option at the extra cost if you use paypal payment.
With the right wording this'll make it sound better at a psychological level and "sound" less like they are trying to underhandedly overcharge you (they are not, but at a psychological level it makes you feel like they are)

Overall I don't think this is a major issue with ebuyer and their CS response has been decent, but it is an issue that should be fixed.
It should be a fairly simple fix, I say should because I know sometimes minor changes to a web site can be major headaches esp when e-commerce is involved.
Still not a reason for them to get ontop of it.