Shuttle on a budget

[SansSouci]

My current computer is gradually falling to bits (700mhz) and I've decided to buy a Shuttle as a replacement. The problem is that I really don't think I need the performance that up to date computers give - the only games I play are crappy play by e-mail wargames and I rarely do anything graphics related. I do however want something fairly smart and have a budget of about £350. I would like to run it 24/7 as a server in my bedroom and would prefer something quiet.

I thought it would therfore be a good idea to get something with on board graphics (SB61G2 V3?, ST61G4?). I also thought I'd go for one stick of 256meg DDR400 RAM to start with. I also need to get the 802.11g adapter: however, beyond that I'm stuck. What is the best value 'budget' processor to buy and what model Shuttle would be advisable? I've yet to check the speed of my hard-drive, which I replaced a year ago, so that may save me some budget.

Help would be much appreciated!

[5cupa]

on a budget i bought this setup for someone

SN41g v2 w.dual onboard gfx £160
Geil pc400 512mb dual channel £55
NEC DVD writer £45
80gb Hardrive £35
2500XP barton for £55

total £350

but i;m not the shuttle expert wait till gordy gets in here

[malfunction]

IMO you're best off with either a SN45G (socket A / nForce 2 chipset with no onboard GFX) or an SN41G2 (socket A / nForce 2 chipset with onboard GFX). There's very little price difference between an SN45G + low end VGA card and the SN41G2 so I would personally opt for the SN45G as a main machine because even though you don't need quick graphics a separate card is much more likely to give a clearer signal to a monitor and save your eyes longer term.

If you really don't need performance then get any socket A sempron CPU. I would *really* advise you to get 512MB of RAM if you're running Windows 2000 / XP as it will make things much smoother (I think the same applies for modern Linux distros too). You might as well get PC3200 DDR RAM as it's basically the same price as the slower stuff.

Suggestions:

SN45G:

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=52947

512MB PC3200:

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=46420

(Crucial branded - don't be tempted to buy generic RAM as it often causes problems)

CPU (AMD Sempron 2200+):

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=73078

Cheap GFX card (Radeon 7000):

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=55267

Total so far including VAT and delivery:

£243.76


For £350 you could EASILY add in a new HDD:

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=34419

... and a DVD burner:

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=66328

Which brings the total (again including VAT and delivery) up to:

£326.36

For a wireless LAN card I'd recommend you just buy a PCI based card and not get the one specifically designed for the shuttle - there's nothing wrong with it but it's a lot more expensive. This one seems OK:

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=45622

Grand total:

£348.68

Obviously if you're happy to keep your current hard drive you can save a bit under £40 and if you'll never need to burn a CD or DVD you could just buy a DVD ROM drive and save another £25 or so (you could even keep your current drive but don't tell anyone if it's beige )...

Total without HDD and with DVD ROM (http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=63532) instead of DVD RW:

£281.78

[SansSouci]

Thank you very much for taking the time out to give me a hand - it's much appreciated.

I would prefer to go for a unit with integrated graphics as at some point in the future I will get round to upgrading the graphics. I've therefore been looking at the SN41G2 and have found one on eBay. So far, I have negotiated the following with the seller:

SN41G
AMD Sempron 2400+ CPU
Aopen DVD-RW (need to check model number)
80GB 7200rpm hard drive
512MB DDR PC3200 Memory (generic at this price, but I will make sure they are branded)
manuals, drivers and all original packaging - by the sound of it, most of it will be new and other bits are ex-demo

= £247 + £20 delivery

Does that sound a good price? Is there anything I should be careful of - cheap components? The seller has super high feedback...

[malfunction]

No problem.

Things worth asking are the length of warranty he will provide - if any - and if not the length of those left on the components - especially the hard drive - as 80GB drives have been around for a while now so it could be quite an old drive if it's ex demo. As far as cheap components go all you've really go to worry about is the RAM and the age of the hard drive and DVD-RW (though if it truly was a demo unit then presume they won't have had much use - though I am assuming a 'shop floor' demo unit not a travelling unit or something he loaned out to potential clients - if it's the latter then I'd be after a lower price)... Obviously it may have some cosmetic damage too if it's a demo unit.

For what it's worth if you went for a low end GFX card + the SN45G you'd at least be able to sell the old GFX card when you came to buy a new one (though as a low end card you wouldn't get a lot back for it - better than a smack in the chops though ). Also (even though you've said you don't care about performance I am a geek and feel the need to say this) even a low end separate card won't eat into your RAM like the onboard will... In support of the SN41G though I prefer the way it looks to SN45 (which has a plastic front)

Basically you're talking £267 compared to £326 for the new spec (minus WLAN card) I outlined above so the only real questions are how long the warranties are on the components / the whole thing and how many other things you can think of to spend the ~ £60 you'd save. Obviously this would also save you the hassle of building it yourself - it's pretty easy but it can be a bit daunting if you've never done so before.

[SansSouci]

After my last list of questions, the seller oddly suggested I buy it new - maybe he was being honest, or maybe I'd just pissed him off with my questions.

Anyway, I'm gonna go watch the Chelsea game, have a bit of a think, then probably buy off ebuyer it tonight.

BTW am I right in assuming this will fit? It's only £16 quid more than the 2200+

If so, just to double check I'll be buying the right things:

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=51053 (£159)

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=65076 (£48)

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=46420 (£52)

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=34419 (£40)

WiFi: I've seen a BT card on eBay (at present I'm mixing brands and have no encryption )

DVD-RW: I'm trying to find a link for a silver one. I think Aopen do one.

Thanks again, I really am grateful.

[malfunction]

Yes it would. If you're tempted by a faster CPU though check this out:

http://www.cpucitystore.co.uk/catalo...roducts_id=392

They usually overclock past 3200+ speeds and many can do 3200+ speed without huge increases in voltage (some without any increase)

(Bit of background here - the Semprons are given speed ratings to compare them against Celerons whereas the older (harder to get hold of now) Athlon XPs ratings compare them to a full P4... So a 2500+ Sempron is actually slower than a 2500+ XP in terms of MHz. The one I linked too also has 512K L2 cache whereas all the semprons have only 256K L2.

[SansSouci]

Going off on a bit of a tangent - how does over-clocking work? I don't want to get into additional cooling or anything, but is it possible to make much difference by changing bios settings (or however you do it)? What would I be able to get out of a Sempron 2400+?

[malfunction]

It's best to read through the general hardware / overclocking forum here - though basically with the SN41G2 you'd only be able to adjust the FSB not the multiplier and you won't be able to adjust the vcore (voltage supplied to the CPU) so you'll be somewhat limited. Also using the onboard GFX means you deffo won't be able to hit a 200MHz (400Mhz DDR) FSB and you may have some difficulties getting that high with separate graphics too as they only officially suport a maximum of 166MHz FSB (333Mhz DDR - though you can still set it higher in the BIOS). Using the onboard GFX I can get my SN41G2 up to about 180Mhz (360 DDR) before it gets unstable. Basically a CPU works out it's speed by multiplying the speed of the FSB (the bus between the CPU and motherboard that transfer instructions and data to the CPU from the RAM) by a set factor (the multiplier). All AMD chips used to have unlocked multipliers so you could just increase that. Now only the mobile (meant for laptop) chips are unlocked as far as I know. So with a locked multiplier you can only increase the FSB i.e. take a CPU from a default of say 11 x 133 to 11 x 166 or even 11 x 200... So 1466Mhz to 1833Mhz (it would actually be something like 133.333 recurring so that's how it's 1833 not 1826 ) or 2200Mhz. With an unlocked chip you can find the best performances by getting it running at it's maximum overall speed at the highest FSB / lowest multiplier (i.e. same or very similar overall speed but faster FSB = faster transfers to and from memory so the system is faster overall)

(Few more bits to take in)

The reason I recommended the mobile CPU was that with the SN45G you could adjust the multiplier, it does support a 200 (400 DDR) Mhz FSB and you can alter the vcore. Also the mobile chips - because they're meant for laptops - run at a lower voltage by default - which tends to mean that they are the 'pick of the bunch' - and so overclock well (i.e. high and without too much extra voltage). The heatsink that comes as part of the shuttle is actually quite efficient and you can set a range of different speeds for the fan depending on you preference to noise / temperatures (and any affect upon stability)...

To be honest - it may be more trouble than it's worth for you at this stage - you also have to test that an overclock is stable (no point in overclocking otherwise as the whole point is higher performance for less cash)... If you do want to try it out though post in the hardware / overclocking forum once you're got the bits and are building the PC and you'll deffo get help from people. The basic rules are to take it slowly - small increases in Mhz and vcore and to test the system as you go along (use stress testing software to hold the CPU usage at 100%), monitor the system and cpu temp (there's software to do this too - nothing fancy required)

[SansSouci]

Hmmm, although I'm not sure whether I'd have time to get into over-clocking, I'm having second thoughts about the processor. Would an Athlon XP 2400 be worth the extra £15 or so more than the Sempron 2400+?

This is the last question... honest! I'm watching a couple of eBay items, then I'll buy the lot on Wednesday... mind you I'll probably be back to ask why it's not working...