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Thread: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

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    Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    Saw this posted on OcUK forums:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_3OAD-Dhs0#t=12m12s



    Mentioned from 18 minutes 50 seconds onwards. Supposedly the first FreeSync monitors will be out between December and January.

    http://wccftech.com/amd-public-mantl...ia-intel-free/

    According to Huddy, AMD has taken Mantle to both Microsoft and the Khronos to help them realize and work in any of Mantle’s benefits that they may wish to implement in their own next generation APIs. Thankfully this resulted in Microsoft and Khronos borrowing many aspects of the low level API that should hopefully bare fruit once DX12 and OpenGL NG finally come to market.

    Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-public-mantl...#ixzz3IxMskyRH
    PS:

    Too many "Hell Yeahs" though LOL.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 13-11-2014 at 02:56 PM.


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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibbo View Post
    Hi there

    Spoke to LG.

    Hoping to get 29" and 34" super-wide flat IPS panels early next year with FreeSync which shall be exclusive to OcUK in UK.

    So IPS and Freesync, boooooooooooooooooom!
    Not bad for the first iteration of Freesync monitors.


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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    Nice feel my next monitor upgrade closer than I thought

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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    The article you've linked makes a number of comments about nvidia not getting on board being a bad plan for them, but tbh I've not yet seen the kind of gains from Mantle that would convince me, if I were nvidia, to get excited about it. The biggest push in Mantle was reducing CPU overhead, and if that aspect of it is being worked into DX and OGL already I'm stuck for a strong reason to jump on the Mantle express. Just wait a couple of years, support DX12 & OGL whatever, and you've got the benefit without worrying about writing drivers for a third API....

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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    The only problem is that it will be a while until we actually have any DX12 games out - do you see a list of any DX12 games being released in the next 12 months?? All we are hearing is the tech side,not any devs saying this XYZ title is being released. OTH,we are seeing multiple Mantle enabled games being released now or in the next year,with many devs saying they are on board.

    Plus there is the other thing though - is DX12 coming to Windows 7 or is it going to be a Windows 8/9 or Windows 10 exclusive?? Mantle works on Windows 7 onwards.

    Even with the improved threading in NV drivers ATM it still does not do as much as Mantle in more CPU limited situations. The bumps people are seeing in BF4 MP and even games like Thief on weaker CPUs looks to be pretty decent,and might negate the need for a CPU upgrade in such cases.

    Edit!!

    There is a further problem here. MS released DX11.3 for reason and it might mean devs might just stick to that for cost reasons initially instead of going DX12,and the CPU overhead reduction mechanism is part of DX12,and we still don't know if any of the DX11 GPUs support it.

    OTH,Mantle(despite its issues although it is still in Beta) will work on many AMD GCN DX11 GPUs,and I suspect by extension many newer Nvidia ones too.

    Second Edit!!

    This is a list of games with Mantle support,pending Mantle support or rumoured Mantle support:

    http://videocardz.com/51018/exclusiv...support-mantle

    IIRC,I think there are more games supporting(or are going to support) Mantle announched in the first year of its existence than there was for DX11.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 14-11-2014 at 01:24 PM.


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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    The only problem is that it will be a while until we actually have any DX12 games out ....
    In consumer terms, perhaps. But in terms of developing drivers and supporting software to address an entire new API? From scratch? That'd be a big undertaking, particularly if they'll have to develop DX12 and OGL drivers at the same time.

    The proportion of AAA games running under Mantle is still relatively low, nvidia provide good performance under DX11 in most cases, and I can't see anyone releasing a Mantle-only game ever. Reviews aren't likely to worry them, because they're done with high end test platforms which minimise the gains from Mantle. And even where Mantle does help to avoid upgrading a weaker CPU, as soon as you hit a CPU limited non-Mantle game it becomes moot: you've got to choose between only playing Mantle games, or upgrading your CPU anyway - at which point Mantle becomes far less valuable.

    No, I still reckon where Mantle will really come into its own is in mobile and mainstream APUs. Imagine a 4-core cat-based APU with a 256+ shader GPU (should be dead easy, AFAICT the GPU segment of APUs draw very little power at all): that's an APU that would really benefit from Mantle, because it's got the GPU to push the framerates but not the CPU to hold up under DX11. It's no wonder Intel are interested too - if they can get Mantle running on their TDP-restricted low-power chips - large and small core - they can push more TDP to the GPU to boost gaming performance.

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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    In consumer terms, perhaps. But in terms of developing drivers and supporting software to address an entire new API? From scratch? That'd be a big undertaking, particularly if they'll have to develop DX12 and OGL drivers at the same time.

    The proportion of AAA games running under Mantle is still relatively low, nvidia provide good performance under DX11 in most cases, and I can't see anyone releasing a Mantle-only game ever. Reviews aren't likely to worry them, because they're done with high end test platforms which minimise the gains from Mantle. And even where Mantle does help to avoid upgrading a weaker CPU, as soon as you hit a CPU limited non-Mantle game it becomes moot: you've got to choose between only playing Mantle games, or upgrading your CPU anyway - at which point Mantle becomes far less valuable.

    No, I still reckon where Mantle will really come into its own is in mobile and mainstream APUs. Imagine a 4-core cat-based APU with a 256+ shader GPU (should be dead easy, AFAICT the GPU segment of APUs draw very little power at all): that's an APU that would really benefit from Mantle, because it's got the GPU to push the framerates but not the CPU to hold up under DX11. It's no wonder Intel are interested too - if they can get Mantle running on their TDP-restricted low-power chips - large and small core - they can push more TDP to the GPU to boost gaming performance.
    Yes,but look at the engines which incorporate Mantle support. All the major next gen ones outside UE4 which is a major win for AMD. Yet look at the titles which have Mantle - MAJOR titles,which is more than can be said for DX11 in its first year.

    Also I disagree about CPU upgrade comment - go onto a forum like OcUK where people have been able to play BF4 MP with Core2 quads/Phenom II X4 CPUs far more smoothly due to Mantle.
    BF4 MP is really taxing on CPUs -if it were not for Mantle they would have had to do a platform change and BF4 despite its issues is a huge title.

    BF4 is the kind of title people would upgrade whole PCs for.


    Plus this:

    http://cdn4.wccftech.com/wp-content/...NG-635x341.png



    AMD like Nvidia is probably also working with MS on DX12 too,so it makes a lot of sense they make porting from Mantle to DX12 as easy as possible.

    I think only the pride of Nvidia is what is stopping them ever using an AMD tech.

    Edit!!

    Battlefield 4 DICE, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Thief Eidos Montreal, Nixxes Software Unreal Engine 3
    Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare PopCap Games, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Sniper Elite 3 (Mantle not yet available) Rebellion Asura
    Unreleased (Confirmed Mantle support)
    Sid Meier’s Civilization: Beyond Earth Firaxis Games LORE
    Star Citizen Cloud Imperium Games, Behaviour Interactive CryEngine
    Dragon Age: Inquisition BioWare, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Battlefield: Hardline Visceral Games, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Offworld Trading Company Mohawk Games, Oxide Games Nitrous Engine
    Mass Effect (untitled) BioWare, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Mirror’s Edge (untitled) DICE, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Star Control Stardock, Oxide Games Nitrous Engine
    Star Wars: Battlefront DICE, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Rise of the Tomb Raider Crystal Dynamics, Nixxes Software Crystal
    Sims 4 Maxis in-house
    Dying Light Techland Chrome Engine 6
    Unannounced title Oxide Games Nitrous Engine
    Unreleased (Mantle support pending)
    Homefront: The Revolution Crytek CryEngine
    Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare Treyarch in-house
    Alien: Isolation Creative Assembly in-house
    Elite: Dangerous Frontier Developments Cobra Engine
    Grand Theft Auto V Rockstar Games R.A.G.E.
    Lara Croft and the Temple of Osiris Crystal Dynamics, Nixxes Software in-house
    Kingdom Come: Deliverance Warhorse CryEngine
    Lichdom: Battlemage Xaviant CryEngine
    Sleeping Dogs: Triad Wars


    Plus you ignore my other comments about DX11.3 and DX12.

    Don't you think it is unusual for MS to release DX11.3 too?? It seems they are mixed about the uptake of DX12 initially and it does not change even the question of whether any of the GCN or Kepler GPUs will support the CPU overhead reduction mechanisms of DX12,or whether you need full DX12 compliance.

    On top of this there is again the question whether Windows 7 will actually support DX12??

    DX11.1 and onwards are not supported on Windows 7.

    OTH,Mantle is supported.

    Don't ever undersestimate the stupidity of MS.

    They did the same for DX10,locking it into Vista and that failed as a result.

    Thats the other thing Mantle is here now in games,DX12 and next gen OGL,where are all the AAA games around??

    Its all bumpf from both consortiums saying "looky here,we have something too" yet 0 games yet. Not even 10 games announced between the both of them in the next 12 months. Only tech demos. Its all reactionary time delaying responses IMHO.

    DX12,is not even supported at an OS level yet fully.

    Hence there are no games,at least for quite a while that companies need to develop DX12 drivers for ATM.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 14-11-2014 at 01:58 PM.


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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    I had some other thoughts too.

    MS said there would be DX12 games by Holiday 2015,six months ago:

    http://www.vg247.com/2014/03/20/dire...ays-microsoft/

    Where are all the annoucements then?? It increasingly seems reactionary in some ways. There will probably be DX12 games next year,but how many and when??

    Then the other problem is the consoles are using DX11 GPUs which probably at most support DX11.3,but also support Mantle.

    So that maybe why they announced DX11.3 - its probably for devs to make it easier to make cross-platform games.

    Thats another problem though - DX10 and DX11 took years to actually get any proper penetration due to stupid tactics by MS and by the fact the console GPUs mostly supported the DX9 feature subset(even though they might not have used DX9 themselves).

    So thats a another problem - unless the CPU overhead reduction mechanism of DX12 is suppported by newer DX11 GPUs,DX12 is going to hit the same problem as DX10 and DX11 in time to market.

    Yes,for Nvidia and AMD they would love to sell more DX12 graphics cards,but from a dev point of view,there are going to be more DX11 GPUs they need to target and MS kind of is indicating this with their DX11.3 launch so close to the DX12 one.

    Like I said it is more the pride of Nvidia which is stopping them using Mantle - look at their refusal to support Freesync.


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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    ... if it were not for Mantle they would have had to do a platform change ...
    Doesn't change my point that as soon as a CPU bound game comes along that doesn't use Mantle they're back to upgrading. And a CPU upgrade impacts a lot more than just gaming. It's entirely contextual - for some people yes, Mantle will delay their need to upgrade. But it doesn't mean no-one will ever have to upgrade a CPU ever, and it relies on them being in the specific circumstances for which Mantle will help.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Plus you ignore my other comments about DX11.3 and DX12.
    No, I didn't. I answered before the two edits to your post in which you mentioned them. Besides, neither point is actually relevant to whether it's worth nvidia starting from scratch now to develop a Mantle driver. The only reason for nvidia to do that - which would take a considerable investment of resources - is if they think it will significantly increase their market share, or prevent them from losing significant market share.

    It's not about Mantle vs. DX12 or OGL NG. It's about Mantle vs DX11. Yes, lots of games are coming out with Mantle support, but they ALL have DX11 support. The only reason for NV to spend time and money on Mantle is if it will give them significant performance advances across a range of hardware and the majority of games. And, AFAICT, it doesn't. If you happen to fall into one of the scenarios it's beneficial for, then yes, it's brilliant and that's fine. But nvidia have to make a business decision on whether that's a large enough market to be worth pursuing, and I can completely understand if they decide it isn't.

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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Doesn't change my point that as soon as a CPU bound game comes along that doesn't use Mantle they're back to upgrading. And a CPU upgrade impacts a lot more than just gaming. It's entirely contextual - for some people yes, Mantle will delay their need to upgrade. But it doesn't mean no-one will ever have to upgrade a CPU ever, and it relies on them being in the specific circumstances for which Mantle will help.
    Sorry I don't agree with you at all. Again those games in the list are BIG titles and you can deflect it all you want,but people have been playing BF4 for the last year or so without having to bother to upgrade their older CPUs,and when you take into consideration the next BF installment is going to be Mantle enabled too,it means they will not need to upgrade.

    This is the point you don't seem to getting - BF4 has millions of players alone on PC who will play mostly that game. Alot of those Mantle titles like Elite and SC are going to be MASSIVE.

    The same with Civ and so on.

    These are the kind of games people WILL change full rigs for - yet with Mantle they have not needed to.

    As more and more Mantle games come out,especially,the larger ones do you think if someone was on a older CPU,do you really honestly think it will have zero implication for the choice of card?? Really?

    Or even to get a newer CPU,if the benchmarks show a decent improvement on older ones when using an AMD card??

    Sorry,but these are the sorts of questions asked by gamers on this forum and others when upgrading,not E-PEEN benchmarkers,or serial upgraders who make any excuse to upgrade.

    OFC,maybe I am posting on some alternate version of forums to everyone else then!



    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    No, I didn't. I answered before the two edits to your post in which you mentioned them. Besides, neither point is actually relevant to whether it's worth nvidia starting from scratch now to develop a Mantle driver. The only reason for nvidia to do that - which would take a considerable investment of resources - is if they think it will significantly increase their market share, or prevent them from losing significant market share.

    It's not about Mantle vs. DX12 or OGL NG. It's about Mantle vs DX11. Yes, lots of games are coming out with Mantle support, but they ALL have DX11 support. The only reason for NV to spend time and money on Mantle is if it will give them significant performance advances across a range of hardware and the majority of games. And, AFAICT, it doesn't. If you happen to fall into one of the scenarios it's beneficial for, then yes, it's brilliant and that's fine. But nvidia have to make a business decision on whether that's a large enough market to be worth pursuing, and I can completely understand if they decide it isn't.
    Yes you did and you keep talking about Nvidia and their DX12 and next generation OGL drivers for what games?? The 10s of imaginery titles which have been announced??

    Its isn't you seem to not really be following the fact that most gamers are not rocking high end CPUs are they??

    Of course it will increase their marketshare.

    The only reason Nvidia would not support Mantle is not some excuse about funds but more a case of perception.

    Even look at Freesync - Nvidia won't support that either even though it is more likely to find itself into much cheaper monitors with larger sales volumes,and thats more a perception thing too.

    Its an AMD developed tech= does not match their brand superiority perception.

    If it were about making money and Nvidia had belief in their own product being much better(G-Sync) they would support it,but guess what they won't.


    Plus even their much vaunted Mantle smashing super driver had a hidden trick:

    Quote Originally Posted by HardOCP
    With the GeForce GTX 780 Ti we found the peak consistent clock speed on both GPUs went up to 1019MHz while gaming. This is higher than the boost clock on a GTX 780 Ti which is 928MHz.
    We also noticed the temperature of the GPU was higher, at 87c, versus 84c on previous drivers. This higher temperature threshold has allowed the frequency to go higher, hence the 1019MHz.
    If Nvidia were not worried about Mantle why bother even to bodge a driver together which just made their cards boost higher...its all about perception.


    This is all driven by the ego of JHH,who is as much a Steve Jobs figure as you can get in this kind of industry.

    Plus looking at the significant performance improvements in many Mantle games in terms of both minimums and frametimes even over competitive Nvidia parts.



    An R9 270 is a slightly faster card than a GTX660,but even better driver threading does not help the latter in the game.

    I have a GTX660 myself and even I can see the performance benefits it brings. Thats in an ancient UE3 engine based game - Epic have always LOVED Nvidia,so even with all the Nvida driver improvements,the GTX660 still loses in an engine which usually likes Nvidia cards.

    That pretty much means UE4 might probably get it too at some point,even if they try their best for it not to happen - that means EVERY major engine will have it.


    Lets go back to the list of games again.


    Battlefield 4 DICE, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Thief Eidos Montreal, Nixxes Software Unreal Engine 3
    Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare PopCap Games, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Sniper Elite 3 (Mantle not yet available) Rebellion Asura
    Unreleased (Confirmed Mantle support)
    Sid Meier’s Civilization: Beyond Earth Firaxis Games LORE
    Star Citizen Cloud Imperium Games, Behaviour Interactive CryEngine
    Dragon Age: Inquisition
    BioWare, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Battlefield: Hardline Visceral Games, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Offworld Trading Company Mohawk Games, Oxide Games Nitrous Engine
    Mass Effect (untitled) BioWare, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Mirror’s Edge (untitled) DICE, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Star Control Stardock, Oxide Games Nitrous Engine
    Star Wars: Battlefront DICE, Frostbite Team Frostbite 3
    Rise of the Tomb Raider Crystal Dynamics, Nixxes Software Crystal
    Sims 4 Maxis in-house
    Dying Light Techland Chrome Engine 6
    Unannounced title Oxide Games Nitrous Engine
    Unreleased (Mantle support pending)
    Homefront: The Revolution Crytek CryEngine
    Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare Treyarch in-house
    Alien: Isolation Creative Assembly in-house
    Elite: Dangerous Frontier Developments Cobra Engine
    Grand Theft Auto V
    Rockstar Games R.A.G.E.
    Lara Croft and the Temple of Osiris Crystal Dynamics, Nixxes Software in-house
    Kingdom Come: Deliverance Warhorse CryEngine
    Lichdom: Battlemage Xaviant CryEngine
    Sleeping Dogs: Triad Wars

    Where is your imaginery list of DX12 and next gen OGL games then??

    There isn't any.

    More than even the games - look at the engines supported. CryENGINE,Frostbite,UE3,RAGE and a few custom engines. A number of those engines are older ones with backported Mantle support.

    You are missing the most important thing - engine support. For a niche API(which I believe is one of the cornerstones of your argument),in less than 12 months its been incorporated into many engines.

    If older engines can even get Mantle support,then is it really that hard for Nvidia to make a Mantle driver for their own cards??

    Look at those titles in red - MAJOR titles probably with millions of sales when they launch(or will launch). Those are the kind or titles people will buy new rigs for.

    If GTAV gets Mantle - do you really think it won't look bad for Nvidia then??

    This is the other thing - what happens when AMD gets its DX12 cards out in the next few months which support BOTH DX12 and Mantle,then what??

    Edit!!

    DX12 is not coming to Windows:

    http://www.pcgamer.com/directx-12-wi...-by-windows-7/

    You want to have reduced CPU overhead - get a new copy of Windows and a DX12 GPU.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 15-11-2014 at 02:21 AM.


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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    Lets have a look at what the Civ devs said:

    Much of the work that drivers used to do on an application’s behalf is now the responsibility of the game engine. ... It also means that this work, which must still be done, is done by someone with considerably more information. Because the engine knows exactly what it will do and how it will do it, it is able to make design decisions that drivers could not.
    Finally, the smallness and simplicity of the Mantle driver means that it will not only be more efficient, but also more robust. Over time, we expect the bug rate for Mantle to be lower than D3D or OpenGL. In the long run, we expect Mantle to drive the design of future graphics APIs, and by investing in it now, we are helping to create an environment which is more favorable to us and to our customers.
    http://www.firaxis.com/?/blog/single...nt-with-mantle

    Thats only one of at least 40 devs who have signed up for the Beta.

    Call them AMD biased/shills/whathaveyou but ultimately it appears the driver is less of a problem,then support into the actual engine.

    If anything the major issue with Mantle has been VRAM usage and that is the major bug it had at the start with BF4.

    Edit!!





    That is the PCPER testing of the latest Civ - the same website which developed FCAT. Look at the minimums on a decent CPU(Core i7-3960X).

    The GTX980 should be destroying the R9 290X,but it isn't.

    Now considering that R9 290 cards can be had for around £200 - now consider someone with a Phenom II X6 or a Core i5 760 which are slower,and wants to upgrade from a GTX570 or HD6950 or worse?? Or even someone with a newer Core i3 or an FX6300??

    Whats going to be cheaper?? A new CPU or platform upgrade or just choosing a different brand of card,which tends to be cheaper??

    As more and more major games get Mantle,this sort of question is going to pop up more and more.

    Now consider a game like Elite: Dangerous then which will be CPU bound.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 15-11-2014 at 12:14 AM.


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    The Hand (20-11-2014)

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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    Pretty massive gains Mantle has there on the minimum frame rate compared to DX11 on Beyond Earth.

    Edit - the youtube vid says its private by the way.
    Last edited by The Hand; 20-11-2014 at 06:24 PM.

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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)



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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    I think we will be drowning in DX12 games pretty early after DX12 "live".

    The reason? Console ports.
    The main reason Microsoft is pushing DX12 is to give the XBO a bit more legs. They will push devs hard to use it and I can't see why they would feel the need to rip out DX12 support for the port.
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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    The main reason Microsoft is pushing DX12 is to give the XBO a bit more legs.
    Which doesn't make sense - DX12 doesn't do anything to help XBO weaknesses - it's GPU limited rather than CPU.

    But using DX12 on XBO should be cheap - there's only one hardware config after all. Using close to metal DX12 on PC is much harder. Then there's the install market - DX12 not being available on Win 7 for instance..

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    Re: Public Mantle SDK here this year. Nvidia and Intel can use it(Free Sync info too)

    You think the XBO CPU is so powerful it won't get gains from DX12? With DX12 devs would have more CPU time to play around with. So while it probably won't give better framerates/resolutions it could allow for more richer experiences.

    And if you've already written the code with DX12 calls, why would you throw that code away for the port? Yes, you will probably have to write a DX11 version (if the compilers won't do that automatically for you)...but again, no reason to throw away the DX12 is there? We've been living with DX9 and DX10/DX11 executables for many games for years, it doesn't seem a great departure to carry on shipping 2 slightly different EXE files.
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