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Thread: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

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    Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    3D TV is pretty much died the death. Hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Nobody wants to sit in front of the TV wearing silly glasses. The parallels are there as much as I'd like to have a go with VR wearing a big heavy thing on my face that is expensive and requires sensors to hang up. Sure it's fun no doubt but practical?

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    Quote Originally Posted by rob4001 View Post
    Nobody wants to sit in front of the TV wearing silly glasses.
    I've no problem with it... Just with badly produced 3D that doesn't follow the basic principles that have been in use since the 1950s.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob4001 View Post
    The parallels are there as much as I'd like to have a go with VR wearing a big heavy thing on my face that is expensive and requires sensors to hang up. Sure it's fun no doubt but practical?
    It's highly impractical and shall remain so until we get affordable 360º holographic imaging to play games on.
    It's also limited in field of view, the fresnel lenses can cause focal issues if you don't align everything correctly, there are loads of cables to trip on, you won't know what's happening in the world around you etc etc etc...

    For my part, having played hours upon hours of VR - The headsets aren't at all as heavy as they look, especially if you adjust the straps to properly support the weight. The sensors do not need to be hung and come with options for various types of stand (using a standard camera tripod thread) or can simply be placed loose on a shelf - One friend even used the suction mount from a GoPro stuck to the mirror in one of his setups. For games where you're sat, you can even use just the one sensor placed on the desk.

    VR is more than just 3D imaging, though. It's the head tracking and the spatial movement that creates the greater immersion.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    I have no interest in VR since it the headsets cost a lot and you need a decent amount of graphics power too. In the end I can spend £250 on a decent monitor which will last me years,yet I can't see a VR headset lasting anywhere as long.

    Also it is just a niche use item - most gamers I know have little interest in VR,and even those that do think the cost is just way to high.


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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    I'm not sure, but 3D always struck me as a gimmick, whereas VR has a degree of immersiveness that's engaging, and also allows you to see things from a different perspective. If coupled with the right hardware, also to see things and experiences not available any other way. Like flying a drone via VR headset.

    3D TV held no interest for me, and the times I tried it, was downright headache-inducing. VR, on the other hand .... I suspect that for the mass market, it depends what content becomes available. If sufficient content is available, quickly enough, it will make it but even then, I see it as an alternative to TV, not a replacement for it.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I'm not sure, but 3D always struck me as a gimmick,
    Much of that is because both the industry and the audience have taught each other that such are their expectations, with the whole Comin' At Ya style of things jumping at you off the screen.
    3D is a background effect, same as Surround Sound. Done and used properly, you shouldn't be made painfully aware of its existence, and perhaps only noting when it's suddenly absent...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I suspect that for the mass market, it depends what content becomes available. If sufficient content is available, quickly enough, it will make it but even then, I see it as an alternative to TV, not a replacement for it.
    I'm not sure VR will ever get that much content specifically for VR. Certain games really do lend themselves wholeheartedly to it, Elite for example, where even remaining stationary offers real immersion. Room scale stuff too, although much of that so far has already been designed around that.

    Films and the like will be severely limited until you have full 360º views and can choose/change your viewing perspective, or even navigate around the scene... but that then leaves you far too likely to miss a key event, expression, exchange or some other thing that a normal film can force you to see.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    Much of that is because both the industry and the audience have taught each other that such are their expectations, with the whole Comin' At Ya style of things jumping at you off the screen.
    3D is a background effect, same as Surround Sound. Done and used properly, you shouldn't be made painfully aware of its existence, and perhaps only noting when it's suddenly absent...
    True enough. I can certainly see the appeal far more for subtle background use, than the InYerFace approach. For me, though, the fact that the tech gave me headaches killed it dead. That probably says more about my eyes than the tech, though I was far from the only one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    I'm not sure VR will ever get that much content specifically for VR. Certain games really do lend themselves wholeheartedly to it, Elite for example, where even remaining stationary offers real immersion. Room scale stuff too, although much of that so far has already been designed around that.

    Films and the like will be severely limited until you have full 360º views and can choose/change your viewing perspective, or even navigate around the scene... but that then leaves you far too likely to miss a key event, expression, exchange or some other thing that a normal film can force you to see.
    You may be right about levels of content, and on top, VR may also be best suited to subtle approaches.

    All told, there are too many attempts by businesses to get us to constantly upgrade. I tend to replace my telly when it breaks down, which irritatingly, mine just did.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    It will take a while, and it won't replace other forms of gaming, and VR will be used for lots of stuff other than gaming, but yes, VR gaming will catch on. 3dTV was always gimmicky and frankly unpleasant to a lot of people, and even when it works the way it's supposed to, it never added much, whereas VR is a very cool experience.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    I'm not sure VR will ever get that much content specifically for VR.
    I think otherwise
    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...one-developers


    If you think VR will die like 3DTV, then you haven't tried a proper VR setup. A headset alone is only good for cockpit games, you really want roomscale for the proper experience but games really do need to be written with that in mind (although that can be as small a concession as allowing a teleport function)....when playing a proper VR game (Trials on Tatooine, Arizona Sunshine, Portal VR etc) the experience can be utterly mind-blowing. Hence, this won't be like 3DTV....and we are only going to see HMDs (and ways to convert your phone into a HMD) getting better and cheaper.
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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    For me, though, the fact that the tech gave me headaches killed it dead. That probably says more about my eyes than the tech, though I was far from the only one.
    There are three basic requirements for successful 3D technology:

    1/. The images must be created in 3D. Post production processing can achieve some amazing things, but still cannot fix errors made when creating the image.

    2/. The equipment displaying the image must be correctly configured. Less of a problem these days, at least in cinema where the Saturday Boy running the projector no longer has to align lenses and things... but modern kit, especially home devices, still need to be set up properly else it just won't work.

    3/. The viewers' eyes must be within the range of parameters identified as 'normal' by the industries. They can only stretch so far and for anyone with conditions outside of that - eyes too close together, detached retinas, extreme myopia, etc - the technology just cannot fit... at least not without aftermarket modification.

    So it may not just be you that's the problem. If you tried a Vive at PC World, for example, they likely would not have run the setup to adjust it properly for your eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    You may be right about levels of content, and on top, VR may also be best suited to subtle approaches.
    All 3D is supposed to be subtle. You don't notice it in normal life, so you shouldn't notice it in games and film...

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    I think otherwise
    Games are for people with gaming computers. I was speaking of the mainstream market, as in all the people who have a television set, and of all the programmes, and of whether or not they will be in 3D/VR.... not just games.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    If you think VR will die like 3DTV, then you haven't tried a proper VR setup.
    I played DOOM VR the other week.
    I absolutely *love* VR.... but this is the first time I've felt nauseous... and it lasted the rest of the evening. The headset very nearly did die... at my own dizzied hands!!

    When I get the money and the screens have improved even more, I will be getting VR, if only for Elite.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    Is that the Doom VR which is nothing more them old Doom with SBS stereoscopic 3D? If so, that's why you felt sick.
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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    Is that the Doom VR which is nothing more them old Doom with SBS stereoscopic 3D? If so, that's why you felt sick.
    Partly.... it was also DOOM VR being messed with by my git of a friend using an XBox wireless controller, which really didn't help matters!!!

    But no, they really need to sort something out around FPS games, for VR to really hit the big time (as far as the smaller gaming market goes, anyway), I think. Not the easiest thing to figure out, I'm guessing.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    VR will never be more a secondary choice. It's too involved to become universal.

    Whether it'll be a sustainable niche market with enough adherants to make it work remains to be seen.

    It does have the advantage that it's not trying to piggyback on top of other hardware. VR headset models could be produced for years, whereas 3D screens were forced to keep up with other fashions.

    If the APIs get put in place to make supporting VR as easy as other niche hardware like racing wheels or joysticks then I could see it being a long term prospect.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    I don't think it's going to be that niche - would happily bet that they will have dedicated professional VR gaming teams by 2020, probably sooner.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    There are three basic requirements for successful 3D technology: ....

    3/. The viewers' eyes must be within the range of parameters identified as 'normal' by the industries. They can only stretch so far and for anyone with conditions outside of that - eyes too close together, detached retinas, extreme myopia, etc - the technology just cannot fit... at least not without aftermarket modification.

    So it may not just be you that's the problem. If you tried a Vive at PC World, for example, they likely would not have run the setup to adjust it properly for your eyes.

    ....
    It may very well be me. I've never, now or before, said that the problems I have with 3D would affect everybody, but there is also very strong evidence, even on HEXUS, that it does affect a sizeable minority. And given that I've had some eye problems for about 35 years, and last year, it got much worse with four laser retinopexy operations to weld the other retina back onto the eyeball, it's very likely my eyes.

    Nonetheless, 3D gave me headaches, and VR (so far) doesn't. Or doesn't any more than watching a normal TV or HD TV extensively does.

    As for PC World, yeah, tried that. But I'm a technology journalist, remember. I've had demonstrations from high street stores to manufacturer development labs. Same every time. Under 30 mins, usually about 10 mins, headache starts.

    All 3D is supposed to be subtle. You don't notice it in normal life, so you shouldn't notice it in games and film
    3D, yeah, but not all VR is subtle. Ever flown a racing drone via VR headset like FatShark? And I mean a real drone, not a computer game. Subtle, it ain't.

    I think that's the difference for me. 3D is an effect, and often, an overblown one. Whereas VR is an experience, and done well, an experience that can put you in a situation plenty sophisticated enough to really make the brain think you're there. Hence the "R" in VR.

    VR, in my opinion, just MIGHT be as important a step up in entertainment as TV was over radio. Now personally, for all that I do, still, very much value radio, it's no match for TV in so many ways. VR, done right, may be the next evolutionary step in cutting edge entertainment. Maybe, in 20 years, we'll regard HD TV with the same quaint nostalgia that those of is that remember ut currently regard black and white TV. I.e. great .... until we knew better, with colour. Then, never look back.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Nonetheless, 3D gave me headaches, and VR (so far) doesn't.
    They work the same way, so that suggests the 3D tech was improperly done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Same every time. Under 30 mins, usually about 10 mins, headache starts.
    Again, suggests the tech to be a problem, even if it's just down to them not taking the time to reconfig to your personal settings... although a bit more likely in this case that you were outside whatever operating range the Labs' tech may have been designed around. Certainly for the High Street lot, though, as they (understandably) cannot/will not take the time to run the setup beforehand. Even with a long booking at OCUK, after several hours on the road to their shop, they just whacked the HMD on and pressed the go button.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And I mean a real drone, not a computer game. Subtle, it ain't.
    I assume that still ought to look like perfectly normal 3D vision, though, rather than things specifically 'Comin At Ya' to highlight that it's in 3D.... Because you can't really get more real world 3D than actual 3D... unless someone was waving something directly at your drone in an overly obvious fashion to draw your attention to the stereoscopic effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I think that's the difference for me. 3D is an effect, and often, an overblown one.
    Exactly.
    Avatar did fairly well in keeping that to a minimum, but they were still tempted on occasion and still made some fundamental mistakes... most of which I noticed on first viewing.
    The Hobbit, by comparison, was quite shoddy in respect of the '3D Rules'...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Whereas VR is an experience, and done well, an experience that can put you in a situation plenty sophisticated enough to really make the brain think you're there. Hence the "R" in VR.
    There's more focus on the general gameplay in VR, I find, than waving things at you and going, "Woooooohh, look at this 3D stuff".
    But the spatial movement and head tracking added into the mix are what puts the R in VR, taking it beyond basic 3D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Now personally, for all that I do, still, very much value radio, it's no match for TV in so many ways.
    I used to... then all the good stuff went to DAB only and I stopped even turning my car stereo on... oh, and I kinda lost interest when I couldn't name a single song/artist being played!

    But until VR goes a few steps further and adds more dimensions, features and functionality, it will remain mostly a gaming niche... however many gamers take it up.

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    Re: Is VR going to be like 3D TV

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    ..l

    I assume that still ought to look like perfectly normal 3D vision, though, rather than things specifically 'Comin At Ya' to highlight that it's in 3D.... Because you can't really get more real world 3D than actual 3D... unless someone was waving something directly at your drone in an overly obvious fashion to draw your attention to the stereoscopic effect?
    Well, kinda neither. It's certainly not about someone waving at it. It's about a camera mounted on a drone and the VR headset making it feel like you're sitting in the drone. If you fly at a tree, then jink right, then left, to nip round it, you feel that and your body reacts as if actually in a craft that nust did that. It's kinda like leaning inyo a curve on a motorbike, so leaning (though to a lesser extent) if you're wearing a VR headset receiving a signal from a camera mounted on the rider's helmet. Now imagine the rider is an android and you're directly cintrolling it's movements. And you're doing an Idle of Man TT championship run.

    Now imagine the bike has an anti-grav engine and you can move in full 3D planes, so instead of jinking right/left at the tree, you can go right at it, straight up one side, over the top, and nose down, power dive at the ground ... before pulling out or you'll smash the drone to bits. Or, you're just taking a look atound the Grand Canyon, but you can go anywhere, see anything that you could if you really were sitting in that agile little drone. And it can do all sorts of things tgat can't be done any other way. Not even a helicopter would let you get that experience.

    It's a VR ecperience, and done right, is awesome.

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