Reliable mouse?

[watercooled]

Have you taken it apart and given it a good clean ?

I've had a look online and found guides for cleaning the switches of my exact mouse, so I'll probably give it a go. It's surprising the amount of things you can fix with a bit of alcohol on a cotton bud!

Have another quick Google and swap "Logitech" with any other brand... you'll find the exact same thing.

Hence why I noted confirmation bias in my first post. It's more due to how quickly it happened on this mouse rather than how it failed. Like I say it's gone wonky before it's even seen out the included set of alkaline batteries! I've had other mice for many years with much heavier use which have never encountered a problem like this. And FWIW there are identical complaints on the first page of Amazon reviews - I don't have to explicitly Google for this fault verbatim to find complaints of it. People on their support problems have had recurrent problems with even two identical replacement mice before giving up and going with something else.

Nothing to do with being wireless, or braided, or LED, or anything. They're switches. Sometimes an occasional one will fail. That's all there is to it.

No call for sarcasm. It's not illogical to consider wired/wireless being a contributing factor - wireless mice such as this one are designed in such a way as to minimise quiescent current - they're far faster to switch the sensors to a pulsed mode, switch off the radio, reduce polling rate, etc. It would make a lot of sense for them to reduce switch voltage (or rather, just use the much lower supply voltage as-is) switch contact oxidation is far more of a problem at lower voltages. Or, they could vary the debounce logic - like with most circuit design, there are trade-offs to be made, and power budget due to power source has a huge impact on them. I'm actually interested in testing that when I get it open. I've owned a Razer mouse in the past that actually got noticeably warm after a while - corded, naturally.

A good switch debouncer will still work fine with a pretty worn switch, and for a company as ubiquitous in this space as Logitech, you'd think they would be pretty good at it by now. My experience doesn't really tally with that. It's also a bit bizarre how you can, in Windows, increase the double-click interval, but not reject superhumanly-fast double clicks. Nice!

To be honest, my G700S did this briefly, at about 2 years after I'd had it. It actually went away after a quick air-dust out and has been fine ever since.

I haven't even used this one for a year.

Also as an update, it's right back to where it was even with the new batteries - seems it was just a bit of a fluke immediately after changing them.

[peterb]

Outside chance but changing the batteries will have applied some mechanical force to the mouse body, so a dry joint/trapped wire/poor connection may have been disturbed. I'd get that screwdriver out and give it a good inspection.

[Ttaskmaster]

It's more due to how quickly it happened on this mouse rather than how it failed. Like I say it's gone wonky before it's even seen out the included set of alkaline batteries!

Suggesting a duff component or bad batch. No company like Logi would intentionally release something so sub-par.

And FWIW there are identical complaints on the first page of Amazon reviews - I don't have to explicitly Google for this fault verbatim to find complaints of it. People on their support problems have had recurrent problems with even two identical replacement mice before giving up and going with something else.

Same for a number of other mice from other manufacturers, further suggesting bad batches.

No call for sarcasm.

Err... There was none.

It's not illogical to consider wired/wireless being a contributing factor - wireless mice such as this one are designed in such a way as to minimise quiescent current - they're far faster to switch the sensors to a pulsed mode, switch off the radio, reduce polling rate, etc. It would make a lot of sense for them to reduce switch voltage (or rather, just use the much lower supply voltage as-is) switch contact oxidation is far more of a problem at lower voltages. Or, they could vary the debounce logic - like with most circuit design, there are trade-offs to be made, and power budget due to power source has a huge impact on them.

Lots of big words and fancy terms, there.... likely more than was used in the design of a gaming mouse. It's a switch. It costs less than £2.50 for a pack of six, including the shipping from China. It's designed to withstand 20 million clicks while being hammered by Ragequit-prone young gamers. It's not a jet fighter switch.... It's also the same switch used by a number of other manufacturers in both wired and wireless products, with similar results.
So no, not illogical to consider this or anything else, but also easily eliminated from your considerations when you compare the results from other sources doing the same thing.

A good switch debouncer will still work fine with a pretty worn switch, and for a company as ubiquitous in this space as Logitech, you'd think they would be pretty good at it by now.

You'd also think that a £300,000 car would have an absolutely solid build and no manufacturing defects, yet even there errors and things do occur.

[watercooled]

Suggesting a duff component or bad batch. No company like Logi would intentionally release something so sub-par.

Oh you think so do you? It's not like companies ever make mistakes on the design of a product leading to high failure rates, or even recalls, is it? Nope... never.

Err... There was none.

Wrong.

Lots of big words and fancy terms, there.... likely more than was used in the design of a gaming mouse. It's a switch. It costs less than £2.50 for a pack of six, including the shipping from China. It's designed to withstand 20 million clicks while being hammered by Ragequit-prone young gamers. It's not a jet fighter switch.... It's also the same switch used by a number of other manufacturers in both wired and wireless products, with similar results.
So no, not illogical to consider this or anything else, but also easily eliminated from your considerations when you compare the results from other sources doing the same thing.

How patronising, again - if you have nothing remotely useful to say, see yourself too the door. You dismissed a theory about the problem with some nonsense, flippant comment, then criticise again for trying to explain the logic behind it. None of the words are anything you wouldn't find in a component datasheet.

FWIW, the microswitches are not rated for anywhere close to 20 million actuations. Mechanical durability is more like 1 million, and somewhere between 30k and 100k electrical. They'll usually far outlast that in reality though, provided they're properly debounced (which is precisely the point I'm trying to make). They're jellybean parts, not specifically made for use in mice at all. Nor is it 'easily eliminated' due to the fact Logitech achieve outstanding battery life on this class of mouse and you can be assured the engineers designing it will have looked at where power can be saved. Power losses considered negligible on a wired product, or even something rechargeable and expected to last a few days, will be put back into focus when you have to make it last ~2 years on AA batteries.

I'm not saying I'm right, it's just a theory.

You'd also think that a £300,000 car would have an absolutely solid build and no manufacturing defects, yet even there errors and things do occur.

I wouldn't think that, not least because cars of that value are generally lower volume and often have higher failure rates for a number of reasons. It is also totally unrelated to the point I was making. In my experience, the Logitech mice I've owned just don't seem to have done as good of a job of debouncing their switches throughout product life as other brands I've had - and they use pretty much the same microswitches.

However you're just wasting my time now. Feel free to reply but I won't see it. Blocked.

[watercooled]

Outside chance but changing the batteries will have applied some mechanical force to the mouse body, so a dry joint/trapped wire/poor connection may have been disturbed. I'd get that screwdriver out and give it a good inspection.

I'll aim to have a look over the weekend, I'd definitely like a poke around. Might even scope out the switch, see what it's doing. It's just that the screws are under the adhesive feet and from experience, removing them on Logitech mice can be a bit messy and they don't always go back properly. It *seems* like dirty contacts are a contributing factor (or perhaps as you say, some dry joints somewhere, maybe on the switch), but decent debounce logic should be able to mask that unless they're seriously corroded or worn.

[ik9000]

I'll aim to have a look over the weekend, I'd definitely like a poke around. Might even scope out the switch, see what it's doing. It's just that the screws are under the adhesive feet and from experience, removing them on Logitech mice can be a bit messy and they don't always go back properly. It *seems* like dirty contacts are a contributing factor (or perhaps as you say, some dry joints somewhere, maybe on the switch), but decent debounce logic should be able to mask that unless they're seriously corroded or worn.

Isopropyl alcohol is your friend

[watercooled]

On my last mouse, the feet kinda disintegrated after taking them off and the glue kept seeping out and sticking to my mousemat, making a nice mess of it. I bought some decent replacement feet from a website which Google now warns may be hacked, so I'll refrain from linking it. I'll give it a go though, nowt to lose if it's broken anyway! Assuming the switch tests bad, I might just replace it with a new one given they're not terribly expensive.

[Ttaskmaster]

Oh you think so do you? It's not like companies ever make mistakes on the design of a product leading to high failure rates, or even recalls, is it? Nope... never.

Mistake. An action, decision, or judgment that produces an unintentional result.
So no, a company wanting to make money would never intentionally do this... That's why they call it a mistake!

Wrong.

If you say so....
You clearly have some stupid chip on your shoulder and WANT to see sarcasm, presumably because you think it helps your argument?

How patronising, again - if you have nothing remotely useful to say, see yourself too the door. You dismissed a theory about the problem with some nonsense, flippant comment, then criticise again for trying to explain the logic behind it. None of the words are anything you wouldn't find in a component datasheet.

I've read plenty of threads about these issues and it has always had nothing to do with the components in your theory. Do not confuse disproval of your theory with outright dismissal, and do not confuse me pointing out that you're barking up the wrong tree entirely with flippancy.
You were wrong. Sorry. Deal with it.

FWIW, the microswitches are not rated for anywhere close to 20 million actuations. Mechanical durability is more like 1 million

Yeah, if you say so.....

Omron D2FC-3M rated at 3 million clicks
Omron D2FC-F-7N rated at 5 million clicks
Omron D2FC-G-7S rated at 10 million clicks

Logitech's own site:
"Upgraded primary mechanical microswitches are rated to a 20 million-click lifespan"
http://www.logitech.com/da-dk/press/...releases/10819

I'm not saying I'm right, it's just a theory.

And I'm not denying the validity of the theory... just highlighting where it has already been proven the wrong tree to go barking up.

I wouldn't think that, not least because cars of that value are generally lower volume and often have higher failure rates for a number of reasons.

That number of reasons is unrelated to the manufacturing defect reason I specifically cited, though, the inferrence being that simple manufacturing defects can occur in most things, regardless of who the manufacturer is or how they manufacture their kit.

In my experience, the Logitech mice I've owned just don't seem to have done as good of a job of debouncing their switches throughout product life as other brands I've had - and they use pretty much the same microswitches.

That's your experience then, but it doesn't change the fact that many people on the internet have experienced the same problem as you with the same switches used by many different brands and that the issue wasn't what you believe it to be.

However you're just wasting my time now. Feel free to reply but I won't see it. Blocked.

So in other words, you only want to talk about why you think the problem occurred and why you think you know it all, rather than hearing what the actual problem is from people who know and have already experienced it... and like a child who thinks he knows it all, now elect to 'block' any response... yeah, good one.

[peterb]

@Ttaskmaster - a bit less of the confrontational approach please.

[Ttaskmaster]

@Ttaskmaster - a bit less of the confrontational approach please.

Just answering the false accusations laid against me in an already confrontational manner...

[ik9000]

and everybody.... relax. We're talking about a mouse switch! The world has bigger problems right now!

[peterb]

Just answering the false accusations laid against me in an already confrontational manner...

I don't think anyone has made false accusations (is that a relative of fake news?) but if you have a problem with a poster, we have a report post button.

So, for the second (and final) time, please stop the confrontstional approach.

[EndlessWaves]

Nothing to do with being wireless, or braided, or LED, or anything. They're switches. Sometimes an occasional one will fail. That's all there is to it.

When was the last time you heard of a commonly used key on a high end keyboard failing though?

I have the same problems as you watercooled, every mice I buy dies in less than five years with the more recent ones (Microsoft Sidewinder, Logitech G600) having click issues. I started counting clicks using Mousotron and my G600, rated for 20 million clicks, failed after just 4 million.

To be fair logitech has never had more than average build quality so I wasn't expecting it to last forever but the button layout looked nice.

When I've looked into it myself Zowie has been mentioned as a brand that uses a different type of switches to the norm so they may be next on my list after the (horrible) G602 that logitech sent me to replace the G600.

Alternatively I must just buy a cheap mouse. None of the fancy features I've tried have particularly appealed so even if a £10-15 mouse only lasts one or two years I'd come out ahead compared with a £30-40 mouse that lasts 3-4 years (or two and a half in the case of the G600).

[Ttaskmaster]

When was the last time you heard of a commonly used key on a high end keyboard failing though?

Me personally?
February was the last. A friend RMA'd first two Corsairs, then a Das, then a Razer, before settling on his current Roccat one. Back in October, another friends had a Ducky Shine 5 with three failed Cherry MX Blue switches.

[watercooled]

Alternatively I must just buy a cheap mouse. None of the fancy features I've tried have particularly appealed so even if a £10-15 mouse only lasts one or two years I'd come out ahead compared with a £30-40 mouse that lasts 3-4 years (or two and a half in the case of the G600).

TeckNet seem to get overwhelmingly positive reviews at Amazon, though some of that might be down to the low pricing and people being pleasantly surprised by it. But then again, if it works and does the same job as a £50 one, where's the harm in it? It's not like you're guaranteed quality or longevity by choosing the big brands, though I have to agree that Logitech's support are pretty good when I've had to deal with them in the past.

Some of the main things that annoy me with cheaper mice are rough edges, chamfered edges that encourage the mouse to ride up on your finger when moving it about, annoyingly high lift-off distance (i.e. how high you have to lift the mouse before it stops tracking, which is surprisingly frustrating), and the buttons not feeling 'right' in some way. For example, one of the clicks being lighter than the other, mushy, or so light that you accidentally press it by just resting your finger on the button. IMO you can adjust to some of those things after using a mouse for a while, provided they're not too extreme.

TBH even my M705 has some of those issues (it's subjective, obviously). Left click is a *touch* too light, not really to the point of being a problem, just not quite ideal. Also, something I see a fair amount of people complaining about is the scroll wheel, where software scrolls don't quite line up with the detents in the physical wheel. On balance I like Logitech's metal scroll wheel with a toggle to freewheel it.

Anyway I've just picked up a G402 to see how I get one. First thing I notice though, is the wire. Might have to rig something up to stop it dragging over the edge of my keyboard tray.

I'll still have a play with the M705 though, out of interest, and keep it as a backup.

[EndlessWaves]

Me personally?
February was the last. A friend RMA'd first two Corsairs, then a Das, then a Razer, before settling on his current Roccat one. Back in October, another friends had a Ducky Shine 5 with three failed Cherry MX Blue switches.

I'm not sure I'd call Razer, Roccat and Corsair particularly high-end for build quality. I don't have any experience of their keyboards but I wouldn't trust anyone designing for the gaming market to design for longevity.

I'm surprised about the ducky though, they do have good things said about them. Although three switches on a model launched in 2015 sounds like a QA failure rather than things wearing out.