Use an old soundcard

[OilSheikh]

Hi Hexites

This is merely an observation and one that you would like to jump on as well.
I have an ancient ASUS P67 with onboard Realtek HD audio. I got hold of an even more ancient SoundBlaster Audigy 2 and have started using it.

I am now hearing audio effects that I didn't know ever existed in songs that I have always listened to. Gameplay audio seems more immersive as well.

Whoa....

[Biscuit]

Hi Hexites

This is merely an observation and one that you would like to jump on as well.
I have an ancient ASUS P67 with onboard Realtek HD audio. I got hold of an even more ancient SoundBlaster Audigy 2 and have started using it.

I am now hearing audio effects that I didn't know ever existed in songs that I have always listened to. Gameplay audio seems more immersive as well.

Whoa....

Apparently the best thing to do is get a reasonably high end USB DAC these days.

I've been using my Asus Xonar D2X for years now.

[johnroe]

Yes the onboard is a good backup. Can you use the Creative software for either, because that's an important part of the package.

[Millennium]

I have had both of those things together(?) (Asus P67, Audigy 2) and yes it's well worth using the soundcard in your system.

I have a Xonar DX now but it's not in use I use the Aune T1 for what it's worth. It's pretty good, they're both pretty good honestly. If you use Xonar style stuff, use the UNi drivers. Oh and use WASAPI please, and tag on Fidelizer (no matter what hardware you use with windows for sound playback).

FWIW I believe even the Audigy 2 has some third party drivers / mixer station setup out there that may well improve the sound you get a touch. I remember using it, it was kind of fiddly but did work fine.

Apparently Creative is coming out with something Really game changing for PC audio pretty soon now. It was demoed at a recent(ish) show and I saw some really positive stuff come from that. I do not recall it's name. Keep a lookout for it!

[johnroe]

As I listen to a lot of music and enjoy immersive gaming so, a soundcard is my best option. I've got a Rec Creative and I think the same as an external soundcard(the headphones were crap). It is good to be able to compare all of them, and a USB DAC would be interesting.

[watercooled]

Drivers, rubbish FP audio connection, general weirdness and the requirement for a legacy PCI slot put me off using my Xonar. I mean it worked well and sound quality was good (also had a socketed op-amp so you could replace it, which I did) but convenience let it down for me.

Driver issues seemed to be a common peeve with sound cards (at least from the noise people made about them on forums, particularly for Creative stuff IIRC) and I had my own share of issues with crashes and whatnot which I think was some sort of conflict with something else on my system. One day I switched back from Ubuntu to Windows and was met with some horrible distorted racket in place of the Windows logon jingle - I never did figure out exactly what that was; rebooting didn't help but switching the card to another PCI slot did, so I assumed some sort of driver conflict or other as it was still OK in Ubuntu. I think I just gave up on it when I upgraded and got a motherboard without a PCI slot.

FP audio - plenty-a-rant to be had here (though this also applies to onboard audio). I've not owned a case that gets it right yet (though to be fair I've not bought a new case in a few years now so maybe things have improved?). I've had Antec, Fractal, NZXT, LianLi - they all have terrible FP audio connections (some also have awful, intermittent USB connections which disconnect in the event of someone sneezing in the next room) - the header cable acting as a nice big antenna for interference and subjecting whoever you're in voice chat with to whatever happens to be playing through your headphones, including their own voice (mic cable picks up from adjacent headphone one), meaning I always had to reach around to the back panel connections to swap between speakers and headset, which was a needless inconvenience over something which should have been so simple to get right - given how the ports soldered onto motherboards tend to be fairly decent quality, I always found this frustrating and presumably penny-pinching by case manufacturers?

A USB DAC is something I would like to try TBH but haven't looked at them in a while. Any recommendations to start looking?

As an aside, noticing new sounds is a phenomenon I think largely comes down to it having an unfamiliar sound profile (aside from what you gain in actual quality of course, but onboard isn't all that bad nowadays) - I'm quite perceptive of this when I get a new set of speakers/headphones or whatever but generally 'get used' to it after a while. I think that's mostly what people are perceiving when they talk about wearing-in new headphones. Same with how a car's steering feels a bit weird when you've had new tyres, etc - it's only minutely different but it's an obvious change to someone who's familiar with it.

Also, some sound 'devices' deliberately or otherwise colour the sound e.g. by boosting or attenuating certain ranges of frequencies to make it sounds 'better', like how TVs in stores are often set way out of calibration to make colours appear more vibrant (again, you're not used to that sort of calibration so it stands out, but you wouldn't actually want your TV set that way).

[Millennium]

Absolutely watercooled - though I had few problems with my Xonar DX/XD (pretty sure it's PCI-E 1x) ...

Certain devices do mess with the digital audio signal path. When it comes to making an analogue signal out of a bitstream, maybe most all do do that. One annoyance of an example - if I take the toslink optical signal from my newish sky box (not q), I will get a lower level of audio (quieter) than if I take if from my Micromega MyDAC or some other source like a minidisc or similar. Seems to be a design flaw of all the sky boxen I've tried so far. Perhaps it's a broadcast quality issue too. Probably both to be fair (and these digital TV signals often have woeful bitrates and codecs, especially freeview terrestrial stuff and erm 'lesser' (more budget) music channels on average. Sky has a better bitrate for video at least for some channels than some other sources - I'm unsure of digital cable in the UK's bit rates for sound and video codecs).

In theory something like the process of D A Conversion is supposed to be easy enough. The bits don't signify parts of the curve of a waveform, it's much better than that the science is really solid. In practice, a quality DAC will outperform even a high end consumer solution or sound card or mass producing source / amp / chip. In my estimation, 48000khz beats 44100 redbook, and similarly 24 bit does actually beat 16 bit, whether you're listening with your ears or your skin. We're not really there yet for sources and playback chain or solutions for most things over 44.1 / 16 bit redbook lossless FLAC for example. (FLAC is brilliant). If we are, the choice is really limited and I probably couldn't afford it.

I totally agree with your comments on front panel audio it just seems broken all the times I've tried it, especially with headset mics. I have had to plug into the onboard ports though fortunately I don't use voice comms (battlefield 2-3, teamspeak for eve, Counterstrike, actually did try discord a little recently just about managed to make some noise to the Eve group) all that much online with my headsets (should shift one or both). I used to have a ?very decent? lavalier that was a Sony and came with one of my dad's eccentric audio cassette recorder purchases (likely around the millennium) unfortunately it's been misplaced for too many years. Maybe he took it back and lost it. That stereo mic worked well for me at the time.

You do somewhat get used to quibbles with audio though you don't have to settle if you don't want to. This whole field is snake oil and well intentioned physics and engineering where often the weakest link may be an interconnect or a trace or a PSU coil or maybe a potentiometer (pot - volume control). More likely it's software for most things... you need for example to use Rocket Player on Android to bypass the android system audio mixer. It can even be a difference between silver or copper or OFC coppers or even sheathing (UPVC or similar versus cloth or something much less capacitive - I believe!)

As for USB DAC recommendations, I wouldn't buy an Aune T1 these days probably, it's not appreciably good value for the (admittedly seemingly good) noise it eventually propels. I do like my Micromega MyDac it's versatile and practical and makes a lovely instrumental sound for me. My honest recommendation here would be perhaps the Cambridge Audio Dacmagic XS (or it's sequels) which is portable and can often produce enough power to headphones or amps or active speakers and is just a nice thing. It's almost at the audio level of the Aune T1 (3rd party valve in mine), it's sort of very close (if a touch harsh digitally), and it's much less than 1/2 to 4/9ths the price generally. I got it on an offer for under £40.
For a mobile you can use it with USB OTG but you'll need to source a rare cable from aliexpress or similar and you will want to be very careful to not damage your phone's port. This stuff is why I don't currently use mine. I should!

I also have a FiiO small home DAC device which is fine just not as good as my other stuff (and probably even my Xonar). I've not tried the Schiit or Chord stuff or similar. If you want more help with this, please do peruse and partake of HiFi Wigwam - it's really good! I also found this 2018 guide just now.

I've never played with changing op amps (it's been a thing in PC audio for some years I agree). Isolation and good power stages and silicon designs are likely more relevant. My main room Denon A10SE semi power amp (it's just a multichannel AV / HiFi amp but it's quite hefty and was really quite expensive new) has good ones, I know that. Burr Brown...
My Arcam Delta 90.2 in my bed room should be pretty well placed here too. The Aune T1 uses the valve as part of the preamp stage (the DAC electronics are actually all solid state ...) so I'm guessing it didn't need an op amp.

Enjoy the music !

[johnroe]

I never have any problem with my Creative drivers, because I never update them. Their cards seem pretty solid. I tried some of their gaming headphones, the sound was good, but the design build quality let them down. Xonar was on my list to try, but the DAC sounds better(next build). Yes I agree watercooled, about getting used to new sound set ups. It takes your ears and mind time to adjust(to hear quality difference between WAV and FLAC).

I had this weird glitch in one game, where the left side sounds switched to the right. So even though I knew the enemy were hiding in buildings on my left, their sounds were appearing from the right like echo, disconcerting.

[Millennium]

Evening johnroe

FLAC is lossless PCM, and WAV is a PCM container. They will give identical output down to each individual bit - so they won't sound different in any way

[johnroe]

FLAC is lossless PCM, and WAV is a PCM container. They will give identical output down to each individual bit - so they won't sound different in any way

That's interesting. Most of my music is WAV files, only a few are FLAC. When I listen I swear I can hear a difference in better clarity for latter. Or maybe it's just because my mind knows which are FLAC.

[Biscuit]

That's interesting. Most of my music is WAV files, only a few are FLAC. When I listen I swear I can hear a difference in better clarity for latter. Or maybe it's just because my mind knows which are FLAC.

Unless your audio playback device(s) are detecting its FLAC and somehow treating it differently, or the files you have in FLAC are a different resolution, there is really no way your ears can detect it.

FP audio - plenty-a-rant to be had here (though this also applies to onboard audio). I've not owned a case that gets it right yet (though to be fair I've not bought a new case in a few years now so maybe things have improved?). I've had Antec, Fractal, NZXT, LianLi - they all have terrible FP audio connections (some also have awful, intermittent USB connections which disconnect in the event of someone sneezing in the next room) - the header cable acting as a nice big antenna for interference and subjecting whoever you're in voice chat with to whatever happens to be playing through your headphones, including their own voice (mic cable picks up from adjacent headphone one), meaning I always had to reach around to the back panel connections to swap between speakers and headset, which was a needless inconvenience over something which should have been so simple to get right - given how the ports soldered onto motherboards tend to be fairly decent quality, I always found this frustrating and presumably penny-pinching by case manufacturers?

I have also never experienced high quality FP audio connectors. As far as I can tell, the cables they use are the same quality as the ones used for the close-contacts and LEDs. Just seems to be the way it is, frustratingly. Be interesting to try and replace the cables/connectors used with some slightly thicker gauge/better shielded ones.

I've always used ports on the back, but then I also tend to use digital output (Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect) for either headphones (I have some wireless surround sound ones which are surprising effective) or amp (I've also had a surround sound set up for my gaming PC before), which leaves the analogue port free for the other device meaning that I just need to flick a switch on the software. When it was the amp plugged into digital, I also found the headphone port on the front of the amp to be a pretty convenient alternative.

As a general point about drivers, I haven't had any HUGE issues with my D2X (which is the PCI-E version of the card). Even though the drivers haven't really been updated for a while, in Windows 10 they seem to be pretty solid. Occasionally if a game crashes I get a sample drumming away in my ears repeatedly... but its hard for me to point the finger at the sound card when its the game that's crashed.
With Windows 7, 8 and 8.1 I had a few gremlins which forced me to re-install the drivers a couple of times over the space of a year or two.
Honestly this card was a great investment and has served well. I'm considering replacing it with something external so I can save a slot in my case, but the support for DD-L/DTS-C isn't great. I really like the convenience of my wireless surround headphones and they are great for gaming, if not perfect for music.

[johnroe]

Unless your audio playback device(s) are detecting its FLAC and somehow treating it differently, or the files you have in FLAC are a different resolution, there is really no way your ears can detect it.

Yes I just checked my audio device does offer playback of files like FLAC. So now I'll see if soundcard can play formats. It is interesting comparing different equipment. I started with an Audigy. I've decided audio headphones definitely better for me than gaming ones.

[OilSheikh]

Yes the onboard is a good backup. Can you use the Creative software for either, because that's an important part of the package.

Yes, you have to install some MODded drivers though as Creative decided not to issue drivers for old cards as a way of forcing people to buy their new cards.

[Biscuit]

Yes, you have to install some MODded drivers though as Creative decided not to issue drivers for old cards as a way of forcing people to buy their new cards.

I have tried this briefly in the past and had no luck. IIRC, there was a lot of hoops to jump through and security features that need to be disabled to get it to work?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Since I have a mini-ITX system,the only way to improve sound quality is to use an external DAC and a headphone amp(a Myryad Z40 currently) and I have been converting my music to FLAC for yonks - I wouldn't get too caught up on the DAC used as especially for headphones the amplification used is probably more important(a soundcard will do this better than onboard audio),and many devices have decent DACs built-in now,and I found a greater difference in using better amplication than different DACs TBH. A lot of the standalone DACs you buy are really overpriced considering the cost of the components(or the fact some much cheaper devices can use similar chips). I have also run audio from my Huawei phone(HiSilicon Hi6402 audio DSP) via a headphone amp to headphones costing £1000s and it still sounded good.

Also regarding formats,in my main system I have tried SACD and DVD Audio and TBH it really does not make as much difference as people think - most of the differences are down to SACD/DVD-Audio discs having different(and more audiophile orientated) mastering.

[Pob255]

One thing that's not been mentioned is surround vs stereo
You'll find you get very different sound form depending on so many factors, one is surround sound emulation vs stereo.
If you have surround sound on the sound is processed in a different way, make it sound more open but at the same time less rich and more flat than stereo.