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Thread: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

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    AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Take this with a truckload of salt,but some reviewers under NDA are hinting at it:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comment...thursday_zen3/

    The irony is,if the new Intel socket works with the 10NM Intel models next year,these new AMD AM4 chipsets,might have a shorter lifespan,as Zen4 is meant to be DDR5. They could use a hybrid DDR4/DDR5 memory controller,but AMD might have shot themselves in the foot with a major advantage over Intel. Also a German laptop OEM said B450 should work with Zen3,so there might be something not quite right about this,if desktop motherboards are limited in some way.

    It would not surprise me though - AMD tends to have good CPU compatibility amongst sockets,but not so good motherboard compatibility. AM2,AM2+,AM3,AM3+,FM2,FM2+ and also stuff such as socket 754 and FM1.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 04-05-2020 at 06:56 PM.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    ,but AMD might have shot themselves in the foot with a major advantage over Intel
    Major in what sense? I would guess the market size of people who want to use Zen 3 with an older motherboard is pretty small - previous generations can get a great upgrade going to the current chips. People on current chips can probably wait until Zen 4 and get a larger upgrade.

    *if* this is true, I don't think it's going to hurt AMD - snubbed toe at most.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Major in what sense? I would guess the market size of people who want to use Zen 3 with an older motherboard is pretty small - previous generations can get a great upgrade going to the current chips. People on current chips can probably wait until Zen 4 and get a larger upgrade.

    *if* this is true, I don't think it's going to hurt AMD - snubbed toe at most.
    I would say quite a lot actually from my experience of people who went onto AM4(lots of people in real life and online) - many I have seen intended to do one more upgrade. This includes random not so techy people who have told me it's an attractive feature of the platform. I know many who spent a bit extra on the motherboard for this very reason,as they intended a longterm purchase. It's mostly people with cheaper CPUs who do this. Not everyone is buying £400+ CPUs BTW.

    Also if you look online and on review websites,upgradeability is often touted as a major selling point of AM4,and AMD PR pushes this too. This is their marketing promising AM4 will be fully supported.

    It does actually help Intel a lot,as one of the negative marketing points pushed about Intel repeatedly is lack of upgradeability of their sockets. This is also a negative touted by many review websites too and repeatedly online. The issue here,is that its quite possible Intel will also include 10NM compatibility with their current motherboards,so it actually destroys a major marketing point for AMD if they do this.

    Now with Intel fixing their security problems and adding HT,very poor timing by AMD. I hope for the sake of AMD this is not true.

    Edit!!

    It does not affect me as much as I bought my system back in 2018,but for people who bought Zen2 just recently,it sucks for them. I have had 20 months so far on my system.

    Also,going back to the first sentence - I knew people on 100 series Intel motherboards,who told me if Intel had not locked out CFL on their motherboards they would have upgraded to one of the six cores. Asus stated it was an artificial lockout and this was proven by some OEM motherboards with older chipsets.

    However,since they locked it out it,it meant they had to upgrade the whole system,and a number switched to AMD,and also said when AMD PR said AM4 would be fully supported for years,it was reassuring unlike Intel.

    Many here are acting like the new Intel range won't be a threat,I think its done enough to start getting quite a few sales away from AMD TBF. Personally I think its good though,as I remember AMD making dick moves back in the day with socket 754. They need to keep each other grounded!

    Edit!!

    Also Schenker said their B450 based laptops will work fine with Zen3:
    https://videocardz.com/newz/schenker...h-b450-chipset

    So something does not sound right on desktop. I hope it's something lost in translation with the reviewers. We will see on Thursday.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 04-05-2020 at 06:29 PM.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    I'm running a B450M Steel Legend, but with a Ryzen 5 1600AF, so I've got a mapped upgrade path for a while yet, even IF the board doesn't support it, there will be those that'll upgrade and then I'll pick up a second-hand 3k series to replace the 1600AF with as and when.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Quote Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig View Post
    I'm running a B450M Steel Legend, but with a Ryzen 5 1600AF, so I've got a mapped upgrade path for a while yet, even IF the board doesn't support it, there will be those that'll upgrade and then I'll pick up a second-hand 3k series to replace the 1600AF with as and when.
    Sckenker who is a German laptop OEM,says the B450 only needs microcode updates to work with Zen3.



    So I hope this is something more like a PR muddle by AMD,ie,maybe its the B350 which does not work. The B550 chipset is apparently a similar ASMedia chipset to the B450 and needs no cooling:

    https://videocardz.com/newz/first-am...board-pictured

    A lot of OEMs produced BIOS upgrades with PCI-E 4.0 compatability with the B450,but it seems they pushed back,so newer BIOSes can't support it. The OEM B550A which is a rebadged B450 does support limited PCI-E 4.0!This is weird as the B550 does not use retimers either. I think AMD is doing an Intel here!

    But see that is the problem here - people might think,I will get a £90 Ryzen 5 1600AF instead of that Ryzen 7 3700X now,as a Ryzen 7 4700X will be better. Now they will probably just wait for a cut price new Ryzen 7 3700X,and AMD will get less money.

    However,in the same token if everyone is looking for a secondhand Ryzen 7 3700X in 3 years time,I expect prices to keep high like the Intel Core i7 CPUs. Also the noise is Zen4 is 2022,so if Zen 3 is later this year,the B550 is going to have no upgrade path after that. One has to question what AMD was doing by not have a B550 chipset out last year.

    But having said that,they did the same with X399.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 04-05-2020 at 06:39 PM.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    A year or so ago AMD gave a number of generations that AM4 was going to be good for, and I'm pretty sure 3000 series fulfilled that promise. However, I think AMD were expecting back then that DDR5 would be ramping by now, and it isn't here yet. That might give us one last hurrah for AM4, partly because it would seem silly to make a whole new platform for such a short time.

    AM4+ is always a possibility though. If, like with AM2+ allowing AM3 CPUs to drop in, AMD tell people they can get a 600 series AM4+ motherboard and drop a Zen 4 into it at a later date then I don't think there will be many complaints.

    I don't see it happening though. Partly because B550 is so massively late, it wouldn't make sense to release B550 and then a new socket immediately after.

    I also just bought a load of parts from Amazon to knock together a cheap server. Emphasis on cheap rather than server, it doesn't use ECC and I wanted integrated graphics to keep the cost down. I went for a 3200G though really I wanted a 3400G, but they are currently going for £240 new, plus £20 shipping. No, that isn't a typo. That says to me that stocks of the 3400G are being run down, which would make sense if something (4400G) pin compatible and much better was about to make an appearance.

    OK, really I wanted a 3300X and some old GPU off the shelf in my garage, but this is for work and I need it now

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Problem is they are doing the whole,you can use your existing CPU in a new motherboard line,its a bit pointless. In the old generations the chipset did most of the connectivity not the CPU unlike now. I don't think many people with change the motherboard with the same CPU though,as any of the improvements the newer Zen SOCs bring to connectivity probably won't work. You might as wait until you can get a new CPU with that new motherboard and that means you need to also look at what Intel has to offer. Intel won't be stuck on 14NM forever!

    OTH,if someone can drop in a better CPU to an existing motherboard,people will weigh up the relative costs,and if there is a nice improvement,a CPU upgrade is cheaper. So even if that new Intel CPU is 50% faster over what you have now,if a £200 CPU can be dropped in and is "only" 40% faster,as opposed to £400 to £500 for a new CPU,motherboard and RAM,many people might just drop in a new CPU.

    This way AMD kind of guarantees Intel does not get a look in. What Intel did with CFL was a mistake,as if people do need to change the motherboard,they will look at other options too. I just hope what is being said is AMD miscommunicating stuff,but they sort of did the same with X399 owners too.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 04-05-2020 at 08:29 PM.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Something from RetiredEngineer on Twitter:
    https://twitter.com/chiakokhua/statu...87294751354885

    He is quoting a China Times article.



    So with Schenker saying B450 is supported,there is no reason at least for the 400 series chipset not to work.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Problem is they are doing the whole,you can use your existing CPU in a new motherboard line,its a bit pointless.
    I don't think any compatibility is pointless.

    At the office we have 3900X workstations, a 2600X server, some Athlon 3000G PCs for user interface stuff (mostly browser based but not all), and I just added a 2U 3200G to that.

    In my desk drawer I have an old A6 construction core based APU that is socket AM4. I had a problem with one of the machines, thought it might be the CPU, so popped the A6 in there. The ability to chop and change parts between so many machines is awesome. That 2600X is due an upgrade, but I'm sure I can find a use for that chip if it comes out, but that would require a new motherboard. So the new chip would go in the existing B350, and the 2600X into whatever was available at the time which could be B550 or whatever.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I don't think any compatibility is pointless.

    At the office we have 3900X workstations, a 2600X server, some Athlon 3000G PCs for user interface stuff (mostly browser based but not all), and I just added a 2U 3200G to that.

    In my desk drawer I have an old A6 construction core based APU that is socket AM4. I had a problem with one of the machines, thought it might be the CPU, so popped the A6 in there. The ability to chop and change parts between so many machines is awesome. That 2600X is due an upgrade, but I'm sure I can find a use for that chip if it comes out, but that would require a new motherboard. So the new chip would go in the existing B350, and the 2600X into whatever was available at the time which could be B550 or whatever.
    It actually makes things worse,for your use case.The whole problem Intel has,is they keep releasing pointless small updates,with slightly altered sockets,instead of sticking with forward compatibility,so when you keep doing that,the average lifespan of each chipset gets shorter and shorter.

    The problem is you assume,that the newer motherboards will actually work with the old CPUs - this might not happen as many companies literally could just stop supporting older CPUs with the newer motherboards even though they fit. There will be no BIOS at some point ever made for these older CPUs. X570 never worked with Bristol Ridge IIRC. If you have older chipsets supporting newer CPUs,older BIOSes will exist for the older CPUs,even if the latest ones don't.

    When in the past AMD did the whole "your CPU will work in new motherboards" but "your motherboard won't work with newer CPUs" most people just decided to ditch the whole platform,and didn't upgrade.

    Literally everyone I would know,would go its not worth it,they will just save more and get a new CPU too. Upgrading to a new motherboard is far more hassle,and most times when OSes,etc require re-registration its more down to the motherboard being changed. Most people will upgrade for better CPU performance,not because you get better features,and the issue is the newer features are mostly in the CPU now,not a separate CPU chipset,so you won't get much of the new I/O anyway with a new motherboard. Remember,AMD CPUs are SOCs unlike Intel. If you can upgrade a new CPU into an existing motherboard its much cheaper to do so.

    The problem is then if you need to change the motherboard to get a better CPU,why not wait longer until you can do both at the same time. If you a Ryzen owner,you might as well also look at what Intel has. Breaking sockets like this only affects AMD worse,as instead of an easy CPU upgrade,you need to essentially just spread out a new platform.

    I hope AMD isn't doing what is being hinted at,but like I said they dropped X399 very quickly.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 04-05-2020 at 10:10 PM.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Confirmed by AMD:

    https://www.techpowerup.com/266710/a...not-compatible

    AMD argues that it ran into ROM size limitations when trying to cram AGESA microcode for all the older processors. We find that hard to believe because B450 motherboards with the latest ComboAM4 AGESA support 2nd gen and 3rd gen processors, including APUs and Athlon SKUs based on the two.
    BS excuse about ROM size. Even TPU thinks its a bit improbable. Lots of the updated AMD B450 motherboards such as the MSI Max range have the same 32MB ROM sizes as the X570 motherboards.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 07-05-2020 at 04:33 PM.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Meh, I'll be looking at some tasty 3k series then..

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Quote Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig View Post
    Meh, I'll be looking at some tasty 3k series then..
    Well for me a reduced cost one or secondhand one,when Zen3 is launched. By then Intel will have better CPUs,and Zen2 won't look so hot anyway. I was intending to spend full price on a Ryzen 7 4700X,so AMD gets less money from me!

    The BIOS excuse is a load of tosh anyway,as many B450/X470 motherboards have 32mb BIOSes like the X570 motherboards. Wonder if AMD hired any people from Intel recently??



    Edit!!

    Looks like old CPUs won't work in the B550 motherboards also.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 07-05-2020 at 05:05 PM.

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??



    As alluded to earlier; maybe they only do this due to bios size as the older 450s will have smaller bios chips. It may be a way of covering themselves. Well heres hoping.......

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Maybe "stock" B450 boards have smaller ROM's, whereas some manufacturers put bigger ones in because that's what they had, and why stock 2 different ROM chips when you can get a better deal stocking all of the larger ones?

    We can but hope, have to wait until the manufacturers give us more, even if it is reduced functionality...

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    Re: AMD 300/400 series motherboards to not work with Zen3??

    Someone linked this thread on Reddit:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comment..._motherboards/

    Look at the list.....not all X570 motherboards have 32mb BIOS chips. Some have 16mb chips. Some B450/X470 motherboards have 32mb chips(MSI MAX line).


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