RTX3060 mining capability is limited in BIOS

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

It appears to me complex than originally thought:

https://twitter.com/bdelrizzo/status...423747590?s=20

Hi Ryan. It's not just a driver thing. There is a secure handshake between the driver, the RTX 3060 silicon, and the BIOS (firmware) that prevents removal of the hash rate limiter.

[[GSV]Trig]

Many cars do come with limited top speed, and several of them you can pay extra if you want it removed by the maker. Likewise you can buy cars with the same engine whose performance is differentiated purely by software.

Ok, probably not the right example, but if you buy something you have the right to do what you want with it, if you want to mine, mine, if you want to stick it on the shelf for a few months and then sell it for more than you bought it, that's also fine, you paid for it, what you do with it should be up to you.

[kalniel]

Ok, probably not the right example, but if you buy something you have the right to do what you want with it, if you want to mine, mine, if you want to stick it on the shelf for a few months and then sell it for more than you bought it, that's also fine, you paid for it, what you do with it should be up to you.

Yep, as long as it's legal but they're not stopping you from mining, they're just restricting the speed. Just like if I took a speed limited car on the Nordschleife - they wouldn't be stopping me, just restricting my top speed. Or I could buy a car that's designed for racing and then I wouldn't be limited - same with these cards.

[ik9000]

Yep, as long as it's legal but they're not stopping you from mining, they're just restricting the speed. Just like if I took a speed limited car on the Nordschleife - they wouldn't be stopping me, just restricting my top speed. Or I could buy a car that's designed for racing and then I wouldn't be limited - same with these cards.

I think it's BS tbh. The card can do X let it do X. Speed is limited in cars for safety and to help people stay within the legal limits when on public roads. There is no law against mining, no H&S risk, it's anti consumer and they should not be doing it. Pro miners will have custom drivers written for them before too long. This just hurts joe-average wanting to mine on the side.

[Agent]

No problem with it, as long as it's clearly advertised and communicated so the user can make an informed choice.

We've already seen it with TESLA and double-precision, NVENC concurrent session limit, optimisations for Quado cards on that set of drivers only, and GPU shader numbers locked down to meet market demand.

This isn't anything new.

The time I take issue is when it's not clear to users, or the product gets changed after release (ADATA XPG8200 for example) without it being clear.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think it's BS tbh. The card can do X let it do X. Speed is limited in cars for safety and to help people stay within the legal limits when on public roads. There is no law against mining, no H&S risk, it's anti consumer and they should not be doing it. Pro miners will have custom drivers written for them before too long. This just hurts joe-average wanting to mine on the side.

Greedy miners shouldn't be using consumer grade MAINSTREAM gaming GPUs meant for mainstream laptops and desktops,to fund their get quick schemes. They are literally buying up laptops.They are 100% the reason why Nvidia is doing it and can do it. So don't moan at Nvidia moan, at entitled miners who have screwed it up for gamers and everyone else wanting to use a GPU not for mining. Also not just mining but boasting when they bribe retailers and buy loads of GPUs,because one isn't enough.

AMD will also follow suite too. So say farewell if you are not a gamer and want to use a consumer product for non-gaming stuff,thank the miners for your windfall.

There were even threads on OcUK forums and other forums on enthusiast miners pushing mining - its a fallacy to think its just some business people doing it,when so called enthusiasts are boasting about it on tech forums. They are justifying spending nonsensical amounts on GPUs on tech forums. Enthusiasts are totally part of this problem.

They are buying up laptops with dGPUS,and even screwing over content creators,etc who might want more than an IGP in a laptop. This is again during lockdown. How many people are going to be without a working desktop if their GPU goes kaput,or need a new laptop if goes kaput??

These entitled miners are greedily buying even old GPUs which are not good at mining,during the middle of a global pandemic when many people are stuck at home,can't go out,etc. A shortage of GPUs screws over normal people who want a desktop or laptop,and just want to be able to run a few games. Is even a GTX1650 something they need for their greedy get rich schemes? RX570??

Many here are worried about high end graphics,the mainstream and entry level has been devastated.

I literally know many people who decided to get a console and probably not bother upgrading their PC now. Nvidia is doing this because they know this is bad for them if gamers start seeking out other platforms. Around half their revenues and nearly 2/3 their revenues before the Mallanox acquisition was from consumer graphics,ie,gamers.

Think of all the new games coming out - no point if is taxing as nobody can have a GPU to run it. Instead get a console or use game streaming instead. If this keeps going on,its going to destroy PC gaming because eventually people do need to replace hardware if it stops working. If you can't get replacements or are not prepared to spend £100s more over RRP,then what is the point?? Might as well use your iPad,etc.

Many people can't afford to spend £500 on a part which costs £300,etc. They wouldn't be mainstream or entry level PC gamers if they could.

If people can't upgrade their rigs,then most won't bother with buying a new CPU,etc either if this keeps on happening.

Miners are not going to buy a decent CPU,etc.

I hope AMD and Nvidia push more blame back onto the miners and those who enable them. That way perhaps AIB partners,retailers,etc soon will understand its the average consumer who is the hand who is feeding them,and biting the hand that feeds them is a not a good idea.

[kalniel]

I think it's BS tbh. The card can do X let it do X. Speed is limited in cars for safety and to help people stay within the legal limits when on public roads. There is no law against mining, no H&S risk, it's anti consumer and they should not be doing it. Pro miners will have custom drivers written for them before too long. This just hurts joe-average wanting to mine on the side.

So what do you think about cars which have the same engine, but software differentiates models based on power the engine is allowed to make - charging you more for a more powerful engine when it's just software limited?

They argue that it's what the market wants - if you want more power, you can by the more powerful software version. Same here from Nvidia they'll say - if you want more non-gaming capability then you can buy a card with that.

[ik9000]

I think that's stupid too. You're paying for the same engine. Just add a user control setting for "economy" or "POWEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" and be done with it. Frankly I think the whole car model system is a farce anyway. They should just sell you a "spec-your-own" where there are no classes, you can just add what you want. So if you want air-con but not alloys you can have it. If you want front fogs but not super-chav stereo and bucket seats you can have it. etc etc.

[ik9000]

Greedy miners ... <snip>

I agree with most of what you say CAT, but the issue is not the capability of the chip itself, it's the crazy system whereby these are sold en-masse to miners no? The issue is the supply chain and retailers taking the big cheques instead of 1 per customer/credit card only in a queue, and for RRP. It is, in some ways, the same as the housing shortage, which wouldn't be nearly so pronounced if we stopped 1) buy-to-lets 2)ownership of more than 2 properties per person/couple (there are times people genuinely need two at once), and 3) prevented sale to non-UK resident tax payers. If you're in favour of gimping GPUs to get more into the hands of "ordinary people on a budget" then we should be doing those steps too. Capitalism has an ugly side. These are two examples. If people keep voting for free-markets and private companies being the answer this is what you get. Cf also Texas power issues. Capitalism is nobody's friend, but the richer you are the more it leaves you alone. I'm not saying we should all become socialists/communists or the other extreme, but a mixed economy with appropriate limitations and regulation has always seemed a far better, and fairer, model to me.

There are also the scalpers to consider, not all scalpers are miners. Miners undoubtedly facilitate the scalpers however.

[kalniel]

It will be interesting to see what the scalping is like on these. I presume they think it'll still be worth it, as long as demand is greater than supply the principal of buy commodity and sell it on at a mark up will be viable, so lets see what the gamers make of the card - it ought to be popular as the *60 cards usually are, and 12GB is attractive, but we'll see - I wonder if enough people are now at 1440p that they're going to start asking for a bit more.

[DanceswithUnix]

I think that's stupid too. You're paying for the same engine. Just add a user control setting for "economy" or "POWEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" and be done with it. Frankly I think the whole car model system is a farce anyway. They should just sell you a "spec-your-own" where there are no classes, you can just add what you want. So if you want air-con but not alloys you can have it. If you want front fogs but not super-chav stereo and bucket seats you can have it. etc etc.

I thought you could do that. They just put in "deals" that give you money off certain trim levels.

I do also have a button for poweerrrr, as is quite normally the case these days. But whilst I suspect that helps with the emissions rating and hence tax rating of a car, it also seems quite sane that the tax for a 200bhp car is less than the 280bhp version.

I also believe in some countries the 170bhp engine in my car can be detuned to 90bhp so that youngsters can insure it.

So the world is complicated; car manufacturers try and tempt us to spend more, and the government wanting us to spend responsibly, but in the end you can pretty much do what you want. Oh, and some people want a badge be it "Ghia" or "M" or "Quadrifoglio Verde" so there is some marketing stuff going on too.

I think that is rather different to the current GPU market which is just broken. In the time it took me to send a message to the company purchaser who was trying to buy me a card, she was finding it wasn't there. That stops companies from working, which damages the GDP of the country.

[ik9000]

I thought you could do that. They just put in "deals" that give you money off certain trim levels.

I do also have a button for poweerrrr, as is quite normally the case these days. But whilst I suspect that helps with the emissions rating and hence tax rating of a car, it also seems quite sane that the tax for a 200bhp car is less than the 280bhp version.

I also believe in some countries the 170bhp engine in my car can be detuned to 90bhp so that youngsters can insure it.

So the world is complicated; car manufacturers try and tempt us to spend more, and the government wanting us to spend responsibly, but in the end you can pretty much do what you want. Oh, and some people want a badge be it "Ghia" or "M" or "Quadrifoglio Verde" so there is some marketing stuff going on too.

I think that is rather different to the current GPU market which is just broken. In the time it took me to send a message to the company purchaser who was trying to buy me a card, she was finding it wasn't there. That stops companies from working, which damages the GDP of the country.

no, not for the cars I've looked at. you have to pay for a certain base trim to get certain features. You can then add to that trim for certain limited options, but you can't just get the basic spec and add say front fogs as a standalone. You have to buy three/four tiers higher to start with. It's a joke IMO.

[Pob255]

There's quite a bit here if you start digging into possible motivations.

This isn't the first time nvidia has done this, they did it with the 10series as well, the mining cards not the kneecapping that is.
Although last time it wasn't so successful, why would a miner buy a single function card which will be worthless in a year and have almost no resale value? when they could just buy a normal graphics card which will still hold some value on the resale market in a year's time?
which is what happened and there was a glut of 10series cards on the market after the slump after the initial crypto boom in 2017 and the mining cards never had great sales.

So this time nvidia is trying to force the issue with this kneecapping.
This is going to have many effects,

• mining cards are cheaper to make, less components, bring the costs down by pennies but that's still money
• the reduced availability later, just look at the steam hardware survey https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/ it's a good indicator and it's dominated by 10series cards (I think some at nvidia are worrying about effects on the next series cards if the market is flooded with 30series cards)
• good pr, we're the ones who are vocal not the miners, so if they can do stuff that doesn't benefit us while portraying themselves as the "good guys" it's a win-win regardless of the actual situation.
• the total of available silicon is being broken up, so there will be fewer total gaming graphics cards although maybe a rise on the commercial market.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The thing is mining GPUs actually don't need high clockspeeds. So Nvidia could sell GPUs which can't clock that high,but have perfectly fine memory controllers. Considering Samsung 8NM isn't that great I would suspect they have enough of those GPUs by now. So after nearly 4 months I expect these CMP GPUs are a good way to also get rid of GPUs which wouldn't have much use for gamers.

[DanceswithUnix]

The thing is mining GPUs actually don't need high clockspeeds. So Nvidia could sell GPUs which can't clock that high,but have perfectly fine memory controllers. Considering Samsung 8NM isn't that great I would suspect they have enough of those GPUs by now. So after nearly 4 months I expect these CMP GPUs are a good way to also get rid of GPUs which wouldn't have much use for gamers.

Or they could sell under-performing 3060 chips to gamers as 3050ti boards.

[Pob255]

or 3065 like they did with the gtx465

nvidia is in this to sell cards and make money, this whole thing smells of pr nothing more, and to avoid the issues they had last time they tried to make mining only cards this time they are intentionally kneecapping the geforce cards to try to force miners into buying the mining only cards, while spinning it as championing gamers