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Thread: Rift or The Old Republic

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    Smile Rift or The Old Republic

    Hey gang,

    I've been 'floating' ever since WoW:Cataclysm came out. I'm an MMO gamer at heart, but what Blizzard has done with Cataclysm in no way cuts the mustard to me. The raiding looks like fun (my girlfriend still plays vigorously) but getting there and having to deal with the community is too much of a bother to me. Mind you, I like me some dungeons and a good rep grind with just rewards (Netherdrakes anyone?) is good fun - but Cata seems to be about cutting out the time-consuming part of games (ie. the parts that make you want to play more) and replacing it with instawin. As such, I've played a number of games in the interim:
    • Global Agenda
    • Warhammer Online
    • Lord of the Rings Online
    • Forsaken World
    • Age of Conan
    • Various and sundry Asian interpretations of Lineage / Ragnarok. That's what they felt like anyway.

    The list goes on, but it should be obvious that none of these were interesting enough to hold my attention for more than a couple of weeks at a time. Now there's Star Wars: the Old Republic coming up and Rift is in full swing. I loved Rift the first time around - played all the betas save for the first one and if I'd had the money and the rig at the time of release I'd have jumped in. However, I'm still stuck on my x1950 pro card with one of the earlier Intel dual cores (not Core 2, no, no. Just a Dual Core one). That's changing though and I'm getting me a nice Quad AMD setup with an ATI upper-midrange to boot so I can get something like Rift properly running. As an aside, I'm a fan of Star Wars and relish the opportunity to muck about in that universe. I've gone so far as to play a bunch of old (think DOS) SW games to get myself pumped.

    Now there's the dillemma: which one to go for. I don't have a lot of time in between work and my domestic duties. Having a gamer girlfriend does give my quite a bit of leeway on the MMO front, but if I stuff that with 2 games I'm pretty sure it'll start eating into my relationship. So, with only one to choose when my new rig arrives:

    Shall I spend my time bashing in troll's heads, beating up goblins and riding around on what appears to be an antilope?

    RIFT: Planes of Telara
    Or should I run around force-grabbing rocks to throw at people, wear freaky robes and shoot lightning from my fingers?

    Star Wars: The Old Republic

    Give me your opinion so I can stop wasting my days wondering which one to pick

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    I'd say it depends largely on your play style. For me its Old Republic all the way. I love the story elements in all MMOs as it help construct and design my character and with SWTOR this is taken to the next level. Choices I make will have a defining effect on my character, who he is and what he stands for. Morality never used to have much effect in MMOs but with SWTOR its at its core, i think it will be the kind of game where people will learn a lot about themselves and make them stop and think about the consequences of there actions.

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    I'd agree with that, if it weren't for the overwhelming reports that SWTOR is just like every other MMO. Mostly rep grinds and running from quest hub to quest hub with nothing really affecting access to the world or its content other than the starting point you choose (ie. Empire or Republic, Sith or Jedi, etc.). Friends of mine that got into the beta also said it wasn't anything new. Now, I like MMOs just the way they are, so no complaints there.

    Was Rift ever an option for you, DoomMarine?

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    Thing is when it boils down to it all MMOs have a similar vein running through them. Now i wont lie I'm a massive Star Wars fan and that is definatly part of the reason I chose SWTOR but as I mentioned I'm big on story. I loved it in Guild Wars when you'd run a mission and you'd see your character act in the cinematics, I made me feel as if my character really was making a difference and wasnt 1 of thousands randomly running about.

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    I'm looking forward to the warhammer 40k mmo. Hopefully it won't be a total letdown.

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    Well yeah, don't expect innovation from either of them. SWTOR is more of the same (or less, but the same), BUT you get to play out one of a number of nice stories. Think of it more like a massive single player game with co-op portions whose cost can only be met by subscriptions rather than a one off shop purchase.

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    Talking Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    I reckon I'll wait for TOR to come out then. I do fancy the look of their classes (though a bit cartoony, but that didn't stop me playing WoW for a couple years) and skill animations. The full narration thing might get annoying, but then I'm trying to actually get into the story this time round and not skip everything a la every other MMO.

    I've always liked Bioware as singleplayer games so I'm pretty much guaranteed a good levelling experience. This of course under the provision that the OBLOLGEARSCORE mentality and Sparlky Pony(tm) don't make an appearance.

    Cheers for the replies guys, gonna play some Republic Commando on hard to get pumped!

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    I'm really looking forward to try this, hopefuly i get into the beta.

    I was playing WOW for a along time, stopped since cataclysm, might get back into it.. spent over 400pounds for subscriptions

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    Not long to wait for TOR now. Date's been announced: 22 December for Europe.

    Is that really a wise time to be releasing an MMO?
    My only concern is should I hide my true identity? A costume maybe?

    0iD: Plus weeing in it every now & again does it good
    scaryjim: 10" is just a little large to hold comfortably in one hand, which makes it a lot harder to tap, swipe and generally interact with.

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    Quote Originally Posted by pauldarkside View Post
    Not long to wait for TOR now. Date's been announced: 22 December for Europe.

    Is that really a wise time to be releasing an MMO?
    Yeah, lots of people in the target demographic are on holiday so have spare time to play

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Yeah, lots of people in the target demographic are on holiday so have spare time to play
    Not a great time to be dealing with technical issues though
    My only concern is should I hide my true identity? A costume maybe?

    0iD: Plus weeing in it every now & again does it good
    scaryjim: 10" is just a little large to hold comfortably in one hand, which makes it a lot harder to tap, swipe and generally interact with.

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    Quote Originally Posted by pauldarkside View Post
    Not a great time to be dealing with technical issues though
    Rabid fans won't complain about issues

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    Very Long Post Coming Up.

    These are my thoughts from the Eurogamer Expo which i went to yesterday and the Community Meet n' Greet which was last night.

    I'm also a regular on Bit-tech, hence why i put in some references to the Preview, feel free to ignore those (and refrain from bashing in general).

    I've tried to bold the more important areas to read around and have added in some TLDR's.

    Okay so where to start...

    Well, the SWTOR booth/place/area ran Origin Worlds for half the day, and then the latter half was Huttball. Since i was playing BF3 and queuing for OnLive at the start, by the time i got around for queuing for SWTOR, i was in the Huttball side of the day.

    As for Huttball itself, i found it to be rather enjoyable although i can see there being some flaws (in terms of balancing). However i will preface these comments with the fact that apparently they've reduced the number of skills since you're jumping straight into a character without having "learnt" his skills along the way.

    Firstly, i was playing the Sith Assassin and at first i was like... not many skills here (i had around 7). So i arranged all of them in a rough order that i could remember (where CC was, basic attacks) and then set off. However a dev walked by just as the game was about to start and stated that someone had actually removed a lot of my skills from the hotbar. So after some strange hijinxing around he restored all of them and i actually had enough skills to fill 2 Hotbars... and they were all in a different order. So i ended up playing with a load of new skills that i had no clue about.

    - Now... the Sith Assassin seems to be somewhat complicated to play and makes me all the more excited to role him as my main Class. He has some (3, i believe) self buffs to his saber (known as charges) and then can "discharge" these for various different effects. Unfortunately since it was PvP and none of the skills were in order, i didn't get to properly see how they worked, in fact, the only skills i used were Basic Attack, Basic Ranged Attack (Lightning) a Ranged Stun and a Ranged Disable (Whirlwind, lasts a long time but is broken by damage).

    With regards to Huttball i can see some issues with balancing. I personally can't see the use for any of the pure DPS classes such as the Gunslinger, Sniper, Mercenary, Commando etc. (unless the latter 2 are healing). The main reason is that there are only 3 ways to lose the ball, to die, to throw it and to hold onto it for too long (and it blows up in your face). As such, i'd think that the only classes needed would be Tanks and Healers and the most Essential Class IMO would be either a Healing Sorcerer/Sage or a Tank Assassin/Shadow, simply because in addition to their primary role they also get an AoE knockback great for either clearing enemies around your ball carrier or to knock the enemy (ball carrier) away from your goal, into fire/poison pits off of ramps etc.

    - The main reason why i think Tanks + Healers is fairly obvious, since the Healers heal and the Tanks can withstand the punishment of people wailing on them. Also, people don't drop that easily and i would say the majority (and most effective) of kills/deaths were simply due to standing/being thrown/stunned in(to) the Environmental Hazards which could kill you in about 3-4 seconds.

    - Secondly, it was fairly obvious that a coordinated team could Daisy Chain "Throws/Passes" across the map and the only way to "Block" these would be to either stun the ball carrier so they can't throw it, or "intercept the throw" by standing where it'd be thrown (it's a targeted area - not a person). This leads me onto my current observations:

    > Currently, the best tactic for Teams with the ball is to roughly spread out and Daisy Chain throws.

    > The tactic for teams without the ball is to wail on the Ball Carrier as an 8 (the size of a team) so that they drop as quickly as possible. Hence why a Tank ball carrier would be most suitable.

    > However the range of the throw is fairly decent and usually the best throws are done across the environmental hazards so they either have to wait or tank it.

    > Thus, Daisy Chaining throws can quickly put significant distance between the enemy team and the ball.

    > Therefore in order to counter this, you'd have to "Mark" players for interception, the most obvious way would be a 1:1 system. However this causes problems of its own; PvP chars are obviously a lot tougher, and as such they don't exactly drop to burst, 1v1 fights can also take some time (in the region of maybe 30secs -> 1 min). This obviously isn't ideal as it gives time for the ball carrier to advance and/or get in position. Also, since the ball carrier would be a Tank, it'd be hard to drop them as well.

    > As such, the most efficient way is to roughly split the marking to around maybe 4 on the current Ball Carrier and 2/4 on the next possible targets. Although this does leave some players unmarked for possible side passes etc.

    Obviously there are various caveats to my analysis, the first being that the game wasn't played with experienced players as such i could be seeing a lack of proper focus fire when trying to target an enemy (i.e. damage is higher than what i think it is) and secondly would be that obviously what i played isn't exactly what is going to ship (more skills being the primary thing) and as such, anything can change, ranging from new mechanics on passing or maybe increased damage during Huttball.

    Anyhow, overall it was a positive experience and i can see myself having fun playing it since it's a Team based objective game and not just "kill kill kill".

    > Clarfication - Yes i only played one game, but i watched the majority of matches from the PvP Tournament at the Meet n' Greet.

    TLDR - Huttball was fun, although i can see some balancing issues.

    ---

    And now, onto the Meet n' Greet .

    The event was fairly busy and since i got there late (went out with friends for dinner) i had to wait outside for a bit because the place was full (health and safety reasons) . Thankfully one of the devs recognised me from the Expo and helped to try and get me in .

    They basically had around 40 or so PCs running SWTOR with 16 of them being allocated for a PvP Huttball Tournament (because i arrived late i didn't manage to get into a team ). The rest of the PCs were running Origin Worlds and you could choose from any class you wanted from around Level 3 onwards, i personally played the Sith Inquisitor and Imperial Agent.

    I think i'll also be trying to contrast with some of the things Joe said in his Bit-Gamer Preview since i think it's possibly one of the most negative articles i've read on the game.

    First things first, i'll state the most obvious impression of the game: If you're not looking for a Traditional MMO with a Star Wars/KoTOR features, then this game probably isn't for you. However i don't mean that in a negative way, just that i think it pretty much embodies the description of "Bioware's version of WoW in a KoTOR setting", obviously with features tagged on.

    Now, onto actual gameplay, my first playthrough was with the Sith Inquisitor as this is the Class i'll be rolling come release day i probably played around 30-40min as her and started at Level 3. I'll side with Joe on this one that the basic gameplay elements (i.e. combat/questing) are pretty much the same as WoW and feel like somewhat of a grind.

    - As with most MMOs these days, not all quests are Kill/Fetch quests and can simply be "go talk to this guy". Bioware's take on this was a quest to go interrogate a Prisoner for information and had it's own Lightside/Darkside options (i.e. convincing or torturing). Obviously a very basic quest, but the added dialogue and choices made it more engaging to play.

    - The Class Stories and Mass Effect style dialogues (i won't say Voice Acting as it was a busy room and i couldn't hear the Voices properly - subtitles ftw) really changed things up from the traditional "Talk to NPC Quest Giver, Ignore Text, Press Accept, Look at Objectives", you are always asked to choose what type of response you wish to give (Obedient/Kind, Neutral or Aggressive/Confrontational). This did a rather good job of helping you relate to and shape your character more. One of the things i most liked in the SI's story was a "rival" acolyte and his Master who would constantly look down upon you and insult you... it helped create more of a story and made me more interested even if it did blatantly have "I will defeat and/or kill you at some point in the future" stamped across it in true Bioware storytelling fashion (that's a guess btw, i never played enough to find out since the next quest afterwards was miles away and i stopped playing).

    TLDR - Gameplay is pretty much like WoW, but the added context from the Voice Acting/Dialogue Options make it more engaging and helps liven it up. To me it's similar to covering an ugly wall with nice wallpaper although you've left a few gaps. You can tell it's an ugly wall, but you don't necessarily mind looking at it because the wallpaper makes it prettier. However those who are overly negative/critical will only see the wall and ignore the wallpaper.

    ---

    Now, onto the Imperial Agent, this character was also Level 3, i played around 10-20min and to put it straight out there: This is why you won't play a Force Wielding Class (same should obviously apply to the Smuggler ofc). I didn't get to play the Trooper or Bounty Hunter, but as i said earlier, the gameplay was very reminiscent of traditional MMOs and without the "action" of being in someone's face and smacking at them, i personally wouldn't find it very engaging and is why i partially think Joe's Preview was so negative.

    The Imperial Agent on the other hand was completely different and has made me consider moving them up on my list of "to-do alts". To put this into a more down-to-earth scenario/context, with the SI i ended up focusing on the quests and doing the MMO thing of bypassing mobs, with the IA i instantly forgo the quests and just went out looking for mobs to kill to the point where i only went and did quests because i wanted to level up and get more abilities.

    - So if you hadn't guessed, Cover is awesome and completely changed my view on the game. You have a toggle-able ability which lets you see cover points and then another ability to roll into said piece of cover. When in cover, you get a defensive bonus from enemies on the opposite side and if not doing anything, immune to damage from blasters. As such, you get a very rewarding and engaging experience by making sure you time your abilities in between the shots of enemies.

    As i said, i didn't really get to play much of the IA (or any of her quest line really) since they started holding a Q&A event right behind the PC i was sitting at so i was more focused on listening in (and asking questions) rather than playing. However i do know that for Beta i'll definitely be rolling a Gunslinger .

    TLDR - Cover adds a great new feature to gameplay and made it very fun and engaging to play.

    ---

    The last thing i wanted to state was about level design.

    - I was rather impressed with Korriban, one of the main quest areas was a Tomb/Cavern and i felt that it really differentiated itself from other MMOs (i've played some WoW to around Lvl30 and Aion to Lvl 37), it felt much more like an area from a Single Player game rather than your typical MMO locations. It wasn't instanced however, so i can also see it being very crowded on launch day.

    - Hutta on the other hand (which is also where the Bounty Hunter starts) was rather bland and more traditional open areas with mobs placed around and in between objectives. Without the attraction of Cover and trying to look for the best cover points to approach mobs, i can see why Joe found it to be somewhat lacking. However i'll put the disclaimer out that i played a very small section of the world and didn't really get to see much more of it.

    ---

    And feel free to ask me any questions, i'll try my best to answer them.

    ---

    Final TLDR - I really enjoyed my time with the game and getting to meet some of the Devs/Staff. I'm even more excited for Launch now .

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    Re: Rift or The Old Republic

    Wow, this post has been a bit active since I last checked! I went to Eurogamer as well and here are a couple of quick impressions:

    Rift
    1. The game has progressed very nicely, there's a lot of content.
    2. Developers really take players' concerns into account.
    3. The visual style hasn't changed but it feels like they're focussing a lot more on atmosphere than detail. This is a good thing.
    4. The game's in full swing, no sign of slowing down - I felt very tempted to just get it right there and then and have a go.
    5. This game will be around for quite a while to come. No Tabula Rasa nonsense.
    6. Speaking to some of the players there really made me feel like the community was very positively charged with players more interested in the game and their respective guilds than epeen.


    Star Wars: The Old Republic
    1. as mentioned: it's a traditional MMO, so no expecting 'active combat' here.
    2. the graphics are not done justice in a lot of the online previews available.
    3. The game looks a lot more serious than I thought it was going to look. The 'cartoony' feel I thought it would have wasn't there at all.
    4. The PvP looks like a lot of fun and is quite visceral even though it's quite 'stand and perform rotation'.
    5. The boss fights Bioware has come up with are different and interesting but close enough to what most people would consider 'comfortable'.
    6. Players have way more responsibility for their own actions than current MMOs where things like aggro and health are managed by others with the odd cd to handle overaggro.
    7. Failure to understand your class WILL result in massive failure. Against decent players this game punishes you quite heavily.
    8. The Star Wars part of SWTOR is present but there's enough of a general sci-fi feel to appeal to non-star wars people. You know who you are and you should be ashamed.
    9. You get to fight in space ships. Period.
    10. Again, there's freakin' space fighting - get with this.
    11. The narrative dialogue and voice acting will only bother you if you're looking to blast through the game. SWTOR is definitely built with immersion in mind. If you're looking for WoW-style levelling and lvl 80 in 3 days then don't bother.
    12. Love KOTOR? Yeah, this is gonna be good stuff.


    This isn't a very complete view of what I saw at Eurogamer and it doesn't detail everything I feel about these games post-con. But I think vdbswong has covered a lot of that and no need to double-post. To be honest, I'm going with SWTOR mostly because it's new. That's not to say my Rift sub isn't going to be active in the next couple of months. There's plenty of multi-gaming guilds/clans that have both

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