I think there will be a number of people that will still be upset by this announcement, but thanks for sharing this update all the same, I am looking forward to playing the game, I have yet to decide which starting option I will pick, but as a Kickstarter investor I have a few options to pick from and I can't wait until I am in a position to pick how I start the game.
Hey, he actually used the word 'sorry'...Originally Posted by Lowe
I heard a lot of people felt differently, either about taking the offline stuff to online, or more commonly having the cool online events occur in their offline too (but at their own pace or something, I expect).
With the amount of randomisation and sheer volume of possibilities anyway, I don't think you'd get that even with an offline. The chances of meeting the same people, ships, events and so on would be so remote.
As is, I still understand the big events will be big for those present at the time, but not utterly game-altering for those that aren't.
Sorry, my bad wording - This is why it would have to be done as two separate games and why they're focussing on just the online one.
But that's only a small part. What about the future updates, improvements, additions, increased functionality, etc?
I guess it just comes down to what the vast majority want, then.
Whether FD have guessed correctly on this one will become apparent during post-release sales. Those that utterly hate having to be online, but still want to play will do so.
Believe it or not, I understand the frustration. I finally got a smartphone, despite still hating that I have to be online for most of my apps to be of any use (even though they don't actually require it for most of their functions and I don't want the online bits).
But at the same time, it's just the way we're forced to go - The better old ways are being ignored in favour of the newer ones. IMO, ED is starting to sound more like Star Citizen anyway, but time will tell...
They themselves won't be able to affect things that greatly, even en-masse. They may be able to decide which side wins a system-war, but there will still be a war with all the subsequent fallout, recovery and rebuilding, because that's the dev-designed event.
Feds raid XYZ system and the Galactic Cartography central database is destroyed in the ensuing battle. Data is lost/corrupted, exploration must begin anew.
That's just my five-second idea - I'm sure a team who has spent 20 years designing a game like this can come up with something far more plausible and acceptable.
Besides, how long do you think it would take to explore and fully chart 400 billion systems??!!
There should be years of play in that alone and since some systems are already there, any that get discovered in your absence might as well have been found by an NPC anyway.
Just as many change based on how much money you have to throw at microtransactions... In one swoop, you can buy ships, fleets, armadas, even whole systems, so long as you've got the moolah to waste on it.
I'm wondering if they'll still work on making the Offline game, perhaps after release of the main version. Seems they're constrained by finances, resources, time and a few issues over how they're working the data. If it's as possible as people who are not members of FD seem to think, then I think it could still happen...
Last I checked, single player games with save+resume functions still were able to be patched/expanded etc. Always were back in the day, and still are now.
Forced to is a bit strong - but yes it's their decision, and I can spend my money on other new games that allow for the play style I'm after. It's fine - EVE is very successful, though there have been other MMOs that are less so.But at the same time, it's just the way we're forced to go - The better old ways are being ignored in favour of the newer ones. IMO, ED is starting to sound more like Star Citizen anyway, but time will tell...
Where upon the people playing the game day in day out will get the exploration credits again. Not the casual players.Feds raid XYZ system and the Galactic Cartography central database is destroyed in the ensuing battle. Data is lost/corrupted, exploration must begin anew.
But that's the point - it's fine if the NPCs and other players are doing it when I'm playing, but if they're doing it when I'm not playing, then I'm going to have to go further and further out, which simply takes even more time and player resources - the exact opposite of what I need as a casual player. Again, making a key aspect of the game viable to only hard core players is a design decision they are free to make, but it makes the game less fun for someone like me.Besides, how long do you think it would take to explore and fully chart 400 billion systems??!!
There should be years of play in that alone and since some systems are already there, any that get discovered in your absence might as well have been found by an NPC anyway.
Which is again under my control - I have the choice whether to ruin my fun with micro transactions or not.Just as many change based on how much money you have to throw at microtransactions... In one swoop, you can buy ships, fleets, armadas, even whole systems, so long as you've got the moolah to waste on it.
I don't think it's in the business plan. One thing I do credit these guys with is being sensible with the money. If they're ruling it out now then it's unlikely to make financial sense in the near future. Maybe for a sequel.. But then they're going to have to figure out how to save universe states - it's been done before, but it's not trivial.I'm wondering if they'll still work on making the Offline game, perhaps after release of the main version. Seems they're constrained by finances, resources, time and a few issues over how they're working the data. If it's as possible as people who are not members of FD seem to think, then I think it could still happen...
That will be an awful lot of patches and expansions, though... and you want those on discs sent out to you every time, or are you happy to go online for those?
That's your road then, I guess.
It's one of the risks and a main reason I usually never pre-purchase/Kickstart anything. This and SC are my first investments.
Sounds more like you just need to be in the right place at the right time, then.
You still get loads of cash from subsequent scans, anyway. I'm making hundrends and sometime thousands, despite loads of people going through a system before me.
Plus there's the periodic re-scan idea from the other thread.
But if it's scripted as an Offline thing anyway, does it matter?
It does seem like a lot of fuss over a game you're only going to play occasionally.
This never struck me as a casual game, though, given how long and how much effort it's supposed to take to even reach Elite status.
I was talking about the other online game spoilers.
Then if that is the biggest kicker, then perhaps they'll have the money left over after the initial release and first round of patches or something.
Of course I'm happy to go online for them.
Well no more or less fuss over any other game I chose to spend my cash on. It's not like they're going to give me a discount over other peopleBut if it's scripted as an Offline thing anyway, does it matter?
It does seem like a lot of fuss over a game you're only going to play occasionally.
Elite was a great casual game - you could just pick it up once in a while, save, and put it down again after any amount of play. It's not like a game where you have a story to 'finish'.This never struck me as a casual game, though, given how long and how much effort it's supposed to take to even reach Elite status.
E: D has microtransactions too doesn't it? I don't really know much about them as I'm not interested - the games I play don't tend to have them.I was talking about the other online game spoilers.
Thinking about it some more - they have to have a world save mechanic for when they restart the server.Then if that is the biggest kicker, then perhaps they'll have the money left over after the initial release and first round of patches or something.
Ah.. I had it on Spectrum. There was no saving on that!
Ship skins and other cosmetic bits, AFAIK.
Nothing that alters the game in the slightest. The closest they've come is a free Eagle for pre-orders, which ain't that much in the grand scheme.
But how much of all this will fit on the average user's hard drive?
I know the old games managed it, but that was half a billion systems in ancient graphics. This is 800 times that amount, with whatever über-fancy graphics and physics info comes with it. I'm guessing that quite a lot more?
I wouldn't fancy downloading THAT, even every few months!!
Well that's the thing with data and 3d - you don't save every last detail. Object information would fit within most system's RAM, let alone hard drive. Graphics and physics data you recreate using the object data/properties. As it's not a streamed game any textures will have to be client side anyway so they're already on your computer.
Hm... a slightly better tone, but frankly he's still trying to tell me what I would find "acceptable". Has he even played the original Elite in the last 25 years? It's pretty "empty", but it's still compelling. As to that taking a lot of extra work ... well, I'm dubious, but I'm not a Frontier insider, so I can't really support an argument on that one. But essentially that quote says "we've decided to make an MMO. Hope you're not too miffed, byeeee".
Yet somehow it still didn't sound like an apology
David Braben and Ian Bell were pioneers of procedural generation. That means with virtually no storage and little computational overhead you can have complex, reliable, repetitive recurring features in a universe. It's what the early Elite games were known for - they managed to have a hugely complex universe fitted into 32k of RAM for Elite, and a 720MB floppy for Elite 2. Those techniques can be used to control the overall feel of the universe, so when you restart a game it feels like the same universe you started in last time. They can't guarantee that from a single-player connected game, and based on DB's quote above it's clear that they're not focussing on the single player experience. It's all about the persistent MMO universe. Well, Elite was never an MMO.
As to them making a second, single-player game based off E: D? They have the game engine, models, interactions, physics, UI, and universe already designed. Plus, AFAICT, there are mission pick-ups and completion in the online game, which means there must be a way to generate missions, accept them, and for the system to tell if they've been completed. In fact, from what I've seen of people's beta experience, the vast majority of the original Elite experience is already there. I honestly don't see how much more they need to add to provide an acceptable offline single player game, particularly for people coming from original Elite. But if they can milk it to two games and get the additional revenue? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the way DB will go....
Given I'm guessing I'm the only person in this thread currently playing the original Elite, I have to agree with this.
If I have 15 minutes to spare and my gaming tablet at hand, I can grab it, do a couple of trading runs, save state, and then put it down for a couple of weeks. Occasionally, if I've got plenty of free time and nothing else to do, I'll do several trading runs, build some credits, upgrade anything I need to, then jump into a nearby anarchy to do some bounty hunting (if you jump less then 3.5 light years you can reset your hyperdrive to jump back and scarper if you meet stronger resistance than you counted on!). A couple of hours should net me a small profit and 6 to 9 kills, then I put it back down for a few weeks.
That's the experience I'd like on a new Elite. The same one I had on the old Elite. And as I said, watching videos of the beta it looks like all those pieces are already implemented. So perhaps you can see now where my frustration comes from?
Technically, it still isn't an MMO.
There are many players online, but they're in loads of different instances. I've been right next to a friend by the very same landing platform but we've not seen each other, because we're in different instances.
If everything is as in place as you reckon, this would be the only reason I can think of to not make the offline game...
If you and others happen to be seriously well-versed in the intricacies of how games work, then perhaps FD would disclose the exact nature of the difficulties to you, so that those outside of the Dev world (which includes me) will believe in and fully appreciate the reasons why they've made this decision?
I can see where the frustration comes from, but what you're wanting was never really part of the original brief. Offline was more like a tacked-on afterthought. It was always about the dynamic galaxy, which could only ever happen via the online server.
Persitent/shared universe is probably a better term than MMO, but if his point is the same as mine (which it sounds like) then it's partially irrelevant whether you can see other players or not, it's the fact the world isn't playing at your pace and that other players can materially affect your experience that make it 'MMO-like' rather than a single player game.
FD would never disclose such a thing. They are a PLC with a duty to maximise value for their shareholders. Publicly talking about inadequacies is not how they behave.If everything is as in place as you reckon, this would be the only reason I can think of to not make the offline game...
If you and others happen to be seriously well-versed in the intricacies of how games work, then perhaps FD would disclose the exact nature of the difficulties to you, so that those outside of the Dev world (which includes me) will believe in and fully appreciate the reasons why they've made this decision?
That's not quite true - the original brief makes clear it's a continuation of the existing Elite game series, which have all had that kind of casual gameplay. There's nothing wrong with mixing it up, but the original brief doesn't make it clear that it had changed so much.I can see where the frustration comes from, but what you're wanting was never really part of the original brief.
Isn't that how the majority of MMOs work? Certainly that's how Drakensang worked - when we got onto the servers we'd need to team up then go through an area transition to get into the same instance. Pretty much every time we played we'd be walking around different instances of the same town. Having instanced universes doesn't stop it being an MMO (IMNSHO, of course).
I absolutely believe that DB originally intended to provide the offline game mode when he started out. I'm really intrigued that the connected experience apparently changes the game so much that he now feels an offline version would be "empty". OTOH that gives the lie to any claim that the connected experience won't change the world much: it obviously does, because that's the reason DB is giving for dropping an offline mode. It also suggests that - whatever he may say about the network requirements - the actual interaction between single player mode and the servers is pretty wide-reaching.
As a matter of fact no you aren't, I have been playing Frontier Elite 2 on the Atari ST after I got the big box version a few weeks back and have also been playing the original on the Archimedes with it's nice fast solid 3D Polygons!!
Check it out, it is like new :
http://colexions.com/?p=blogshow&b=30336
Anyhow, ED I feel they should have a fully implemented offline mode, it is where the game started and users are expecting that. I can kind of understand the online single player only, I am guessing they will be doing this so there is an economy that changes and evolves. The thing is though on the flip side they could easily do that offline.
If this isn't done properly you will end up getting higher level players waiting around bases and systems to take out low level players who can barely defend themselves to get their cargo
Solid polygons? Luxury!All we had were wireframe, and we were thankful for it!
Actually, frustratingly I got killed today because I couldn't find the ECM icon fast enough - the only real downside of the icon based controls in the NES version. I never really got on with the flight system in Elite 2 - have to say your pristine copy looks really pretty, though
Solid polygons? Luxury!
Actually, frustratingly I got killed today because I couldn't find the ECM icon fast enough - the only real downside of the icon based controls in the NES version. I never really got on with the flight system in Elite 2 - have to say your pristine copy looks really pretty, though
Elite on the NES, and here's me thinking you would have been playing it on Spectrum, Commodore, Amstrad or BBC/Acorn
I think you should go and sit in a corner for 30 minutes and think about what you have done!!
Get yourself ZXSpin and download the game from World of Spectrum. Site is endorsed by Amstrad and you can legally download the game from there as distribution has been allowed (you will notice that some games says distribution denied)
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/infos...cgi?id=0001601
Reason for saying Spectrum is that ZXSpin supports 128k machines and there is a 128k version available, BBC emulator can be a bit awkward to use unless you are familiar with that machine, C64 version is pretty slow as it was never really any good at wire frame vector graphics and I have yet to play the Amstrad version (need to get that one next! ). Spectrum doing wireframe is pretty fast also, you can get the manuals and what not from WoS for keyboard stuff, just search for Elite and you get a dropdown, click on the item you want in the dropdown as if you hit return it finds nothing, they have their search setup in a strange way!
If you want snazzy solid 3D though get Atari ST Steem Engine or WinUAE (Atari ST or Amiga Emulators), bear in mind though that you will need TOS for ST or Kickstart ROM for Amiga and these are still enforced copywrite so a bit of Google - Fu is needed
I used to have the BBC version a couple of computers ago, ran great in emulation under Win 2k on ... hmmm, was probably the Athlon XP machine. I've got the NES version at the minute because I have an android gaming tablet, so I get portable EliteAnd actually I really like the NES icon system (although things like ECM are harder to get to - requires a bit more planning).
Both David Braben and Ian C Bell have declared the NES version their favourite, so I don't think I'm being too unfaithful
Used to play a lot on the Archimedes at school, and those solid polygon models are really pretty, but given I mostly game in bed on a laptop nowadays the old school keyboard controls aren't as convenient. If I ever go back to having a gaming desktop I'll probably get myself a "proper" version, but for now a portable NES will just have to do!
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