First decent D-SLR: Canon EOS 450d or Nikon D90?

[Flibb]

Think the adobe trials are now 60 days, you can dload from their website.

[Taz]

Adobe Photoshop Elements is £76.38. Adding it into the mix slightly blows my budget of £800 but might prove to be an essential purchase:

Canon EOS 450D: £389.99
Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di: £254.95
Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II Lens: £68.94
SanDisk Extreme III SDHC 4GB Card: £13.99
Lowepro Rezo 160 Shoulder Bag: £14.92
Adobe Photoshop Elements 7: £76.38

GRAND TOTAL: £819.17

It's close enough to my budget for it not to be an issue. I just need to be sure that it's an okay bit of software and essential!

[Bobster]

elements is part of the package of Canon? ive always got a copy of elements with all my cameras?

[YorkieBen]

It might be up on the higher models but afaik it isn't on the 450d - a quick check on google and an 'unboxing' video on youtube it looks like it comes with raw software and drivers but no elements

[Agent]

I didn't get elements with my 450D, and that's only a couple of months old

[Taz]

I just checked the 450D brochure on the Canon UK site and it only comes with the drivers and Canon’s Digital Photo Professional software which appears to be a RAW converter.

[Bobster]

It might be up on the higher models but afaik it isn't on the 450d

my 300D came with a copy.. so its not higher models, Canon prolly decided to do away with it.. shame

i have an unused copy here if you're interested Taz?

[brammers]

If you've got access to student licences you can have Lightroom V2 for 80quid. Might be a better choice for a beginner than PS Elements?

[tfboy]

I just picked up a Tamron 17-35mm f/2.8 - 4 for £150 and it's a belter Well, for £150 it is anyway. I went for that because I wanted a decent quality wide angle lens that was full-frame (owning a D700).

Sorry, to get back to the point I was trying to make: a year or so ago, I would have said get a cheap camera and a good lens - it's the quality of the optics that gives you good quality pictures (providing you're driving the camera properly).

However, now, I think I'd change that slightly - if you go for a mid-range camera such as D90 or 50D, then you're above the entry-level mark. If you have a good quality lens on an entry-level camera, the body will be the limiting factor by a long shot. If you have a moderate quality lens on a mid-range camera, it's probably better tied. The point is that with a mid-range camera, the controls are similar to that of the high end stuff so if/when you decide to change the body, you'll already be familiar and your current mid-range body will be a usable and useful 2nd / backup body.

I bought my first dSLR (a D70) about 5 years ago, then upgraded to a D200 about 2 years ago now I've bought a D700. I hardly use the D70 and whilst it's a great little camera, the controls are just different. The D200 and D700 (and D300 and D90) have similar layouts so you're less thrown when you move from one to another.

Just another point of view

edit: just to be clear, I'm not saying Nikon is better than Canon, it's just the way I went because at the time I bought my D70, it felt a lot sturdier than the plasticky 300d digital rebel Canon made. Now that a 50D Mk2 is around, you could probably get a good deal on a 50D Mk1 that will give you a great starting platform.

Last point: when you go for good quality glass, it will always be a compromise in terms of flexibility because of it's focal range. Kit lens are a great "one lens for all" and are pretty average at that, but at least they give you just about everything from a wideish angle to medium telephoto. When you start getting better lenses, you'll be narrowing their usability, but of course will get potentially much better pictures for what they are designed. The point is that if you have one particular interest, say sports / wildlife where telephoto is mainly used, great, get a decent tele lens. But if you're still undecided whether to stick with wide angle for landscapes of go telephoto, then you won't get one good quality lens that caters for both ends of the scale. That's why I picked up the Tamron wide angle. It does it very well for a reasonable budget (and I have 85mm 1.4 Nikon and 120-300mm 2.8 Sigma for telephoto stuff)

[colmo]

Adobe Photoshop Elements is £76.38. Adding it into the mix slightly blows my budget of £800 but might prove to be an essential purchase:

Canon EOS 450D: £389.99
Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di: £254.95
Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II Lens: £68.94
SanDisk Extreme III SDHC 4GB Card: £13.99
Lowepro Rezo 160 Shoulder Bag: £14.92
Adobe Photoshop Elements 7: £76.38

GRAND TOTAL: £819.17

I wouldn't waste money on Elements - try to get a student licence (bound to be a student amongst your family or friends if you aren't one yourself - even night-classes qualify you) of Lightroom 2 instead. As I'm Linux user, I use the RawTherapee (now v2.4 is available as a beta, and is pretty good) and GIMP combo. This combo works on Windows too.

Is the camera body-only? I thought I saw the 450D kit available around £400. If it is body-only, you're going to hate the Tamron's wide-angle of 28mm - with Canon's 1.6x crop factor, that's equivalent to a 44/45mm lens on 35mm - that's not wide at all. Consider the Tamron 17-50mm f2.8 instead, or try to fit a dedicated wide-angle lens in, like Bobster suggested with the Tokina 11-16mm (or 12-24mm).

I approve of the CF card and 50mm lens choices. If buying at a store (that's the Amazon price, right?), I'd haggle a free bag into the deal.

For a bag recommendation, I own 2 of the predecessor to this Hama rucksack. I've also seen pro news shooters using the previous model too. I can (just) fit a camera with fitted 400mm f5.6 lens in it, with space for about 3 or 4 more lenses and a flash, or maybe drop two of those for a back-up camera with body-cap (or squeeze it in with a small lens, like a 50mm).

[colmo]

P.S. I was having a look at Mfsuds for used gear - they have a Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 and a Tamron 28-75mm f2.8 in Canon fit, both for £220-ish.

Incidentally, they have that lovely Minolta combo of the beercan (70-210mm f4 - I got mine off Mifsuds, and it's a cracker, though I did have to find a hood for it separately) and 50mm f1.7 for a combined cost of £158...bargain!

I just noticed you didn't have a flash listed - perhaps Bobster could advise on a good value gun (maybe used) for the Canon system?

[Taz]

With regards to the photo editing software, i've just realised that I have a full copy of Paint Shop Pro Photo X2. I would imagine that it's fine for basic photo editing, albeit not quite up there with Photoshop Elements.

[brammers]

tfboy - can you give some observations on that 17-35 on full frame? I've found a KM version for the same price as yours - I'm wondering about it quite strongly... The thing is I like to print big - sizes in meters rather than CM, so often for a landscape I'd stitch it at 50mm instead of going wide on a single frame, even with 24mp...

How's the AF on a D700 - does it use the body motor or has it got a micro motor?

What I'm after would be centre sharpness at 2.8 and FF sharpness at optimal aperture - for full-frame I'd guess f14ish - diffraction kicks in later with the larger sensor size.

Colmo - if you want Minolta kit I'm about to sell a 35/2 and a 58/1.2. If you've got the money Beercan & 50 for 160 is cheap!

[Bobster]

With regards to the photo editing software, i've just realised that I have a full copy of Paint Shop Pro Photo X2. I would imagine that it's fine for basic photo editing, albeit not quite up there with Photoshop Elements.

better than elements, on a par with Photoshop, its just a different interface

[YorkieBen]

lol hands off that beercan, I've been trying to get through to mifsuds the last couple of days and everytime I ring they don't seem to pick up. If I manage to get through its mine

[tfboy]

tfboy - can you give some observations on that 17-35 on full frame? I've found a KM version for the same price as yours - I'm wondering about it quite strongly... The thing is I like to print big - sizes in meters rather than CM, so often for a landscape I'd stitch it at 50mm instead of going wide on a single frame, even with 24mp...

How's the AF on a D700 - does it use the body motor or has it got a micro motor?

What I'm after would be centre sharpness at 2.8 and FF sharpness at optimal aperture - for full-frame I'd guess f14ish - diffraction kicks in later with the larger sensor size.

Colmo - if you want Minolta kit I'm about to sell a 35/2 and a 58/1.2. If you've got the money Beercan & 50 for 160 is cheap!

If you can wait for a day or two, I'll try and take a few shots and give you some examples

It's not servo driven - it's a screw drive from the body. But it's fairly quiet (a lot quieter than my 85mm 1.4) and pretty fast, probably about 0.25s from completely OoF to in focus. How much of that is due to the decent AF system of the D700, I don't know, but doubt it would vary much with another body.

Here's one of it on the camera