Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matts-uk
They all use a Four Thirds sensor size, which is significantly smaller than APS-C.
No they don't. Olympus and Pansonic use 4/3 and Sony and Pentax use APS-C in their lower end bodies. Sony has had 35MM frame sensors in the A850 and A900 and Pentax has the 645D medium format digital camera. Sony sensor technology has been behind a number of the 35MM frame sensors used in Nikon high end cameras. Sigma uses sensors similar to APS-C size too and so do Fuji and Leica uses larger sensors too.
DR in the final picture is also not only connected to photo-detector surface area but also the technology used in the sensor and the processing algorithms used too.
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CAT-THE-FIFTH
No they don't. Olympus and Pansonic use 4/3 and Sony and Pentax use APS-C in their lower end bodies.
My Apologies, you are of course right about Sony and I was wrong about that one thing. The other stuff you point out I did not mention, quite intentionally as it goes.
Quote:
DR in the final picture is also not only connected to photo-detector surface area but also the technology used in the sensor and the processing algorithms used too.
Once again correct, it's a very dynamic and diverse area of technology with rules that change by the year. Even so and very simply, the size of the sensor still imposes the greatest influence; the bigger it is, the more expensive it is. Petty difference aside, an APS-C in a Nikon or Canon body, is still the biggest sensor the majority of hobbyists will afford.
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Why the insistence on Nikon or Canon?
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matts-uk
Once again correct, it's a very dynamic and diverse area of technology with rules that change by the year. Even so and very simply, the size of the sensor still imposes the greatest influence; the bigger it is, the more expensive it is. Petty difference aside, an APS-C in a Nikon or Canon body, is still the biggest sensor the majority of hobbyists will afford.
You do realise cameras such as the Nikon D5100 and D7000,the Pentax K5 and K30 and various Sony cameras all share variations of the same Sony 16MP sensor.
In fact the Canon sensors are slightly lower in area than most APS-C sensors(this is why they are closer to a 1.6X crop factor than 1.5X with companies like Nikon) with their current 18MP jobbie. The widest dynamic range of any APS-C camera for many years was found in the Fuji S3 Pro and S5 Pro - these used custom Fuji made sensors with differing area photo-detectors.
Moreover,even cameras with a similar sensor,can produce different results due to the implementation. This is why you need to look through reviews to compare each camera model on its own merits.
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kushtibari
Why the insistence on Nikon or Canon?
I don't know.
You would need to ask an awful lot of people why they bought the camera they bought and not some other camera, to answer that question.
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matts-uk
I don't know.
I see, you could have said your actual answer to my question a bit sooner rather than go on about something off topic :p
But I don't think the OP has stuck around.
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CAT-THE-FIFTH
You do realise cameras such as the Nikon D5100 and D7000,the Pentax K5 and K30 and various Sony cameras all share variations of the same Sony 16MP sensor.
Well I don't go around with endless statistics embedded in my memory, just in case I find myself in some photographic trivia competition but yes, I am generally aware and can look up the details on DPReview, WetPixel (or wherever,) when I might need to. I am also aware that APS-C is a standard size which is applied to a collection of digital sensors, which are nearly but not precisely, the same size. This is not DPReview or WetPixel however.
Quote:
The widest dynamic range of any APS-C camera for many years was found in the Fuji S3 Pro and S5 Pro
Yes but they are not made now, so it's a bit moot.
Quote:
Moreover,even cameras with a similar sensor,can produce different results due to the implementation.
Yes, we established that already.
Quote:
This is why you need to look through reviews to compare each camera model on its own merits.
Of course you would first need a clue as to what the figures mentioned in such reviews might mean, to make any sensible decision based on them. How do you reckon that's going to happen and what do you think the implications might be?
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
You said "an APS-C in a Nikon or Canon body, is still the biggest sensor the majority of hobbyists will afford."
I'm not asking somebody else, I'm asking you. Why only those two brands?
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
I see, you could have said your actual answer to my question a bit sooner rather than go on about something off topic :p
And you could have presumed I was attempting to be helpful and informative. I could have regarded your question as leading and naive but chose not to.
To lay it out for you, so to speak.
You know about sensor size and DR or you don't. If you know and if image quality and creative flexibility are top priorities. You buy the biggest damn sensor you can afford. £1500+ being more than most non-professionals are willing to spend on a body alone, the biggest damn sensor is roughly APS-C size. There are other secondary priorities, as were previously mentioned, which in combination with the top ones, lead to a compromise which is statistically likely to be a Nikon or Canon. There are so many combinations of compromise here, there ain't no point, to my mind, arguing which might be best for any one person or why Fuji or Sony don't do so well.
Canon or Nikon...Because?
Well the answer definitely isn't - Because Fuji made a great DSLR some time in the past!
If you don't know about sensor size, convenience and price will (more than likely) win out. Convenience and price might be higher priorities anyway. Which, if you are going to buy a DSLR, makes it statistically likely that you will end up with a 4:3 camera in your bag.
It is all extremely subjective anyway, because the qualities within the image a camera produces are extremely subjective.
Quote:
But I don't think the OP has stuck around.
The OPs question was answered long ago, "Talk to your tutor." I am pretty sure my old tutor would say, used Nikon or Canon with a 35mm f1.8 lens.
Feel free to insert emoticons where you need to.
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matts-uk
You know about sensor size and DR or you don't. If you know and if image quality and creative flexibility are top priorities. You buy the biggest damn sensor you can afford.
That's a very naive viewpoint. The DR on a 4/3rds based Oly E-620 was higher than the equivalent APS-C models from Canon and Nikon at the time for example. APS-C is only a little larger - if sensor size is all important then you get a lower-end full frame camera, second-hand if need be, and brands like Sony offer some of the best value for money in that area.
But even if you take the incorrect view that you must go APS-C, why would you only chose Canon or Nikon? For many uses I can imagine Sony or Pentax being a superior choice.
Finally the real world sensor image quality between all the DSLR brands is as close as to be the same for most common uses so the sensor should really be among the last of your distinguishing features - usability for your intended purposes is far more important.
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
That's a very naive viewpoint.
Yes. It's a simplified answer to a naive question.
Quote:
The DR on a 4/3rds based Oly E-620 was higher than the equivalent APS-C models from Canon and Nikon at the time for example.
Quite probably. I believe I mentioned it was a dynamic technology with rules which change year on year. Scroll up a bit, I am sure you will find it.
The physics of the matter is pretty simple. All other things being equal, bigger sensor, more photons (light) strike it. It's then down to the electronics to capture those photons, which is the bit which changes year on year. There is some more complicated physics, regarding narrower fields of view (smaller sensors) and greater pixel densities (mega pixels / area) further reducing photon availability but lets ignore it, as it only undermines your argument further. If you wish to query the physics, I suggest you do it on DPReview but I suspect they will eat you alive, so to speak.
You can not capture what you do not have to begin with!
Quote:
APS-C is only a little larger -
What you mean like 40% to 50%, is only a little larger!
Quote:
if sensor size is all important
Which, I never said. I have been at pains to point out that convenience and price might also be important. Sensor size is one of the more significant limiting factors in photography though, film and digital.
Quote:
...then you get a lower-end full frame camera, second-hand if need be, and brands like Sony offer some of the best value for money in that area.
Oh dear. Starting out with a full frame digital camera...I would say that is really, really poor advice. Better advice might be, invest a relatively small amount on a C&G at your local night school, before you start spending relatively large amounts on camera equipment you don't know how to use.
As I was alluding to within my direct questions, which you chose to ignore. The figures and much of the willy waiving which surrounds them, are meaningless without some basic grasp of photography. To obtain that grasp of the subject, there are no shortcuts in my opinion. You have to get out and take photos, a lot of different photos, print a lot of photos, experiment a lot and get comfortable exercising the Manual mode. Once you have done all that, possibly read a few books on the theory, art and history along the way too. It stands a chance you will have formed your own opinions, of both your own priorities and the usefulness of camera reviews. You will know why you want particularly, a Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus, Fuji, whatever and you won't be asking why Nikon or Canon here.
Quote:
But even if you take the incorrect view that you must go APS-C,
Did you miss the bit where I said, if you are happy with your camera and the images it produces, it is probably the best camera for you, whoever makes it and whatever it costs. Again, feel free to scroll up.
Quote:
For many uses I can imagine Sony or Pentax being a superior choice.
Quite possibly. The bit you seem to be struggling with is the fact that none of the other companies you have mentioned, dominate the enthusiast photographer space as Nikon and Canon do.
Quote:
Finally the real world sensor image quality between all the DSLR brands is as close as to be the same for most common uses so the sensor should really be among the last of your distinguishing features
Is very misleading. Like for like sensors are pretty similar, agreed. A D300 (DX) and D700 (FX) are poles apart though. You can not wring the same detail out of the DX, because less light is hitting the sensor during a similar exposure, compared to the FX. Even so, you still need photographic skill to properly expose the detail using any sensor and the detail itself, is meaningless without composition.
Quote:
- usability for your intended purposes is far more important.
You are entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you would like to offer your opinion as to why Nikon and Canon dominate the enthusiast market. Should it involve you thinking you know better than several million individual enthusiasts, forgive me for choosing to ignore it.
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kushtibari
You said "an APS-C in a Nikon or Canon body, is still the biggest sensor the majority of hobbyists will afford."
I'm not asking somebody else, I'm asking you. Why only those two brands?
Why only those two brands, what?
Sorry the question is too terse for me to make much sense of it. I am having to guess here.
The enquiry was, Nikon or Canon because ?
Seems reasonable to talk about those two brands exclusively and mention how their closest competition (4/3s) might be somewhat different. I made a mistake with Sony, hands up to that.
I am surprised at the reception though.
Why not Nikon or Canon? Is a different question and one which I was not trying to answer.
Nice landscapes by the way.
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kushtibari
Why the insistence on Nikon or Canon?
because they are the best :)
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matts-uk
You know about sensor size and DR or you don't. If you know and if image quality and creative flexibility are top priorities. You buy the biggest damn sensor you can afford. £1500+ being more than most non-professionals are willing to spend on a body alone, the biggest damn sensor is roughly APS-C size. There are other secondary priorities, as were previously mentioned, which in combination with the top ones, lead to a compromise which is statistically likely to be a Nikon or Canon.
So, this begs the question for someone, that no one would buy Canon?
Afterall a canon prosumer body has a smaller sensor than a Nikon or Pentax or a Sony.
So as you've stated no one would buy a canon, unless either your wrong, or they are stupid. (or both).
I think your finding people hostile, because your saying things which you don't really understand as much as you think you do.
You also ask why someone would buy something else? Find anything as good as a K-5 for the money in Nikon or Canon.
You'll have to excuse me, I've got to clean out the go pro casing (Sahara sand gets everywhere), and charge the batteries, I'm off to mountains in Asia during the rainy season, I have enough faith in the pentax weather sealing (http://sdrv.ms/OFAKJP) the hard bit is making sure it doesn't get noticeable drops of water on the filter!
Re: What are the Best Camera Brand to Use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matts-uk
Yes. It's a simplified answer to a naive question.
You seriously think that asking someone to explain their answer when there is no obvious reasoning behind it is naive? This is a discussion forum. If you just want it to be full of simplistic, unhelpful answers then your on the wrong forums - we try to be a bit more informative here at Hexus.
Quote:
The physics of the matter is pretty simple. All other things being equal, bigger sensor, more photons (light) strike it. It's then down to the electronics to capture those photons, which is the bit which changes year on year. There is some more complicated physics, regarding narrower fields of view (smaller sensors) and greater pixel densities (mega pixels / area) further reducing photon availability but lets ignore it, as it only undermines your argument further.
Or not, seeing as while sensor size plays a role in DR, it's clearly not the be all and end all otherwise a 4/3rds sensor wouldn't be able to match or beat an APS-C. 'All other things being equal'.. well horay, let's all use the same manufacturers and everything else then :p The point is all other things are not equal, so you should only look at the whole thing, rather than incorrectly isolating sensor size.
Quote:
Oh dear. Starting out with a full frame digital camera...I would say that is really, really poor advice.
Why are you talking about starting out?
Quote:
Better advice might be, invest a relatively small amount on a C&G at your local night school, before you start spending relatively large amounts on camera equipment you don't know how to use.
Or better yet, ask the tutor. See the earlier replies in this thread.
Quote:
Once you have done all that, possibly read a few books on the theory, art and history along the way too. It stands a chance you will have formed your own opinions, of both your own priorities and the usefulness of camera reviews. You will know why you want particularly, a Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus, Fuji, whatever and you won't be asking why Nikon or Canon here.
Er, yes I will. Because I've done all that, and for all my experience and knowledge, I don't know why someone would simply suggest Canon or Nikon. Hence my reasonable request to explain it. If you don't think people should explain up their opinions then you're on the wrong forums.
Quote:
Quite possibly. The bit you seem to be struggling with is the fact that none of the other companies you have mentioned, dominate the enthusiast photographer space as Nikon and Canon do.
At last, a reason! Thank you, even though I wasn't asking you per se, it's good to get your opinion. Now I happen to think that market domination by itself is a pretty bad reason to go for a brand, unless it gets you something else you couldn't get elsewhere, which I'm not sure is the case here, but please feel free to explain why that might be the case if you believe otherwise.
Quote:
You are entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you would like to offer your opinion as to why Nikon and Canon dominate the enthusiast market. Should it involve you thinking you know better than several million individual enthusiasts, forgive me for choosing to ignore it.
These are forums, you are welcome to ignore anything here, though I'd rather you just presented the reasoning behind your own opinions and joined us in the photography threads posting up your own pictures - nothing speaks louder than a great photo :)
