Flash advice

[KeyboardDemon]

I have a Canon 5d Mkii and I am building up my equipment, the next thing on my list is a flash and today I was about to buy a Canon 430 EX ii but was asked to consider a Nissin Di866 Mk ii as a better alternative, the reasoning being that it offers more power, is more versatile and just because it doesn't say Canon on the front doesn't mean it won't work with Canon cameras or support all of the features. He then demonstrated by setting the flash up with a Canon camera and long telephoto lense, he asked me me to pose in the shop and proceeded to leave the shop, walk to the edge of the kerb outside the shop and turned to take my picture standing between 5 to 7 metres away from me, he then took another with the flash pointing straight up ensuring no light could get into the shop. With the flash the result was amazing, good even and natural looking light on my face, without it the picture looked very badly underexposed and he demonstrated a couple of other examples too, I was impressed and nearly bought the flash immediately, but decided I should give myself some cooling off time to think more clearly before jumping in to make a potentially bad decision. I don't know the brand, should I be worried about them or are they as good as the guy in the shop said they are?

[Saracen]

I only played with Nissin fairly briefly, but the impression I gotcwas pretty good. Somd reviews have said that the power claims are exaggerated, by that nonetheless, they are powerful. Just not quite as powerful as they say.

Two things would worry me a bit. First, build quality and longevity. My experiences with Canon flash is that they're good, if expensive. Nissin? I just don't know, which I'd why I worry a bit.

Second, ETTL compatibility, ovdr the long term and as developments occur, is trickier than it might appear, and again, I just worry a bit.

Also, the cynic in me screams out when, and if, I get a product I didn't ask for pushed hard at me. It mightbe because the guy in the shop genuinely thinks it's better, ir as good but cheaper. Or it might not.

It might be because he's the proselytizing personality type that, because he bought one, thinks it's the best bet for everybody else. and he may have bought one because he can't afford Canon.

Or it might just be that his margins on the Nissin are a lot better than on the Canon. Like I said, the cynic in me makes me very edgy about salesman trying to bait and switch me.

I guess all that's not much help, 'cos it amounts to .... dunno.

[Saracen]

Oh, and his demonstration just sounds like the benefit of fill flash, it which case, hell yes, it can make a big difference, but any decent flash would in those circumstances.

[Bobster]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yongnuo-YN...item2578577d1f

[KeyboardDemon]

@Saracen: As I've been out of the photography game for a long time (about 12 years since I last picked up a camera to do more than point and squirt shots my last serious kit was an FM2 with Metz and Quantum pack and then an EOS 1Ds Mk 1) some of what you said needs a bit more explanation, particularly your reason for concern over the TTL/ETTL. In what way does it get trickier?

The shop I went into is Spectrum on Tottenham Court Road and they have been trading as an independent for more than 40 years, they have a massive range of original and third party lenses and accessories for all major camera brands including 26 different flashguns, he showed me a few before demonstrating the Nissin, but said that the Nissin was his favorite due to reviews he had seen in various magazines, he said it is his favorite as it was the most powerful on the market and he also explained the law of the inverse square where and how effectiveness of the flash diminishes exponentially as the distance between the subject and the camera increases. What he said made sense, but getting more information before dropping my cash on new hardware is never a bad idea.


@Bobster: I've not heard of Yongnuo but in a video comparison of the YN460 vs the Speedlite 430 EX and Speedlite EX II the commentator said he had concerns over the Yongnuo build quality, do you use Yongnuo yourself? Can you tell me more about the brand?

[Bobster]

I have 1 Canon 580EX, the rest of my flashes are Yong Nou - my 568EX is about the same as my 580EX in terms of build and light strength, and has the added addition of an audible beep when its ready to fire (can be turned off) - very useful when using it for OCF work.

and the 460 is uber cheap! its also Manual only no TTL..

[Saracen]

The concern over ETTL is that, as far as I understand it, Canon don't publish the full handshaking protocols, so third parties basically have to try yo reverse engineer that handshaking. You're therefore trusting thst, first, they got it right, and second and more elusively, they got ALL of it. It's not unknown for bits to be "reserved for future use", and that makes it gard as hell to reverse engineer now.

This is a very murky area, as as far as I'm aware, Canon never really comment on what they do or not not licence, officially or otherwise, and I've had some very guarded comments from third-party staff in the past.

As for builc quality, the YN460 series did have a reputation for being pretty good, functionality-wise, but cheap and cheerful jn build quality. The YN568 has moved up a gear in build quality and it certainly much closer to Canon.

As fas as I'm aware, though, it won't work as a wireless master, just a slave. So if you're using, say, a 580EX as master (as I assume Bobster is??), no problem, but if using multiple YN568's, you're probably going to need external triggers (like the YN622C) if you want full control.

That's another example of the kind of gotcha I had in mind with the "concern". Sticking with Canon is the safe, if decidedly more expensive, route.

I don't have any YN568s, and my only experiience with them was an hour or so playing with a couple of units belonging to a friend, but it was as slaves with a Canon flash as master. They worked perfectly well, and build quality seemed pretty decent. Longevity? Dunno.

[Bobster]

i have 4x 622C's for controlling my flashes, paired with the 580EX + 568EX allows me to utilise HSS (High Speed Sync) and the range is far greater than IR, and works 100% in bright sun - the 568EX automatically knows when it needs to switch to HSS, where the 580EX needs to be told in the flash to use it

for me it allows me to have a multiple flash set up for a small outlay compared to using 100% Canon flashes and say Pocket Wizards..

[KeyboardDemon]

@Saracen: The Nissin flashes can be connected to a PC and have firmware updates applied so this might help overcome ETTL issues and the build quality is almost but not quite as good as Canon's build quality on the 580 EX Speedlite.

I also found this, not a review but they compare the Di866 to other branded flashes.

@Bobster: I'm a long way off from needing to think about multiple flash setups at the moment, I think a good quality diffuser would make more sense for me in the early stages and then when I'm more confident I can look at multi flash options.

[Saracen]

....

@Bobster: I'm a long way off from needing to think about multiple flash setups at the moment, I think a good quality diffuser would make more sense for me in the early stages and then when I'm more confident I can look at multi flash options.

But .... if you might want to go multi-flash, it makes sense to buy now with a view to having an upgrade path in place. Bobster's solution sounds like a good one - cost effective, yet versatile.

[Bobster]

@Bobster: I'm a long way off from needing to think about multiple flash setups at the moment, I think a good quality diffuser would make more sense for me in the early stages and then when I'm more confident I can look at multi flash options.

and you think a diffuser is what?

the YN568EX works on camera as well as off..

[KeyboardDemon]

and you think a diffuser is what?

I see a diffuser as a simple way to get the best possible light from a single flash without having to buy and then carry extra equipment or have to spend time setting up additional stands etc...

I see the benefit of having the option to use a wireless controller with a flash so that later down the line I can have my flash mounted on a stand and use it with other flashes to set up a really good three way lighting system with a key light, fill flash and back light setup or even a cheaper option of two flashes with a key light, back light and a reflector, I also appreciate that the YN568EX is cheaper than the Di866 by around about £65 on the best prices I've seen for the Di866 and close to £100 on the best Amazon prices I've seen, but as I don't know anything about Yongnuo I would really like to get some more information on the brand, such as why you picked them over Nissin, own brand flashes or any other rival brand?

I think in the future something like this might be a good way to go, but while I find my feet I want to start off with a sensible single flash option that I can expand upon as required so far both the Nissin and Yongnuo look like good options, and from what I've seen when asking in Independent photography stores the Nissin is the one that gets the higher recommendations. CameraWorld in Wells Street also suggested Nissin over own brand, but I didn't see any Yongnuo in these stores, and I really want to stick one on a camera and shoot a couple of shots to see how they are before I make a final decision, where I can't try them the next best thing would be to find out why they appeal to other photographers.

[Bobster]

I see a diffuser as a simple way to get the best possible light from a single flash without having to buy and then carry extra equipment or have to spend time setting up additional stands etc...

like a wall or ceiling?

I see the benefit of having the option to use a wireless controller with a flash so that later down the line I can have my flash mounted on a stand and use it with other flashes to set up a really good three way lighting system with a key light, fill flash and back light setup or even a cheaper option of two flashes with a key light, back light and a reflector, I also appreciate that the YN568EX is cheaper than the Di866 by around about £65 on the best prices I've seen for the Di866 and close to £100 on the best Amazon prices I've seen, but as I don't know anything about Yongnuo I would really like to get some more information on the brand, such as why you picked them over Nissin, own brand flashes or any other rival brand?

I started with my 580EX and Manual YN flashes - the YN560 with the 602 flash triggers, sure the back wasn't a LCD display, but for £60 i wasn't expecting amazing bells and whistles to come with it. The flashes and triggers are reliable, the only time i've had trouble with them is when the batteries are nearly flat (happens with all flashes)

I managed to kill a 560 flash a couple of years back (it fell into the sea) but the trigger survived..

Yong Nuo are showing the rest of the flash manufactures that they're a force to be reckoned with and flashes and accessories don't have to cost the earth.

You can usually find one of their representatives on a popular photographic forum talking about their product and answering questions. They're listening to their users..

I think in the future something like this might be a good way to go, but while I find my feet I want to start off with a sensible single flash option that I can expand upon as required so far both the Nissin and Yongnuo look like good options, and from what I've seen when asking in Independent photography stores the Nissin is the one that gets the higher recommendations. CameraWorld in Wells Street also suggested Nissin over own brand, but I didn't see any Yongnuo in these stores, and I really want to stick one on a camera and shoot a couple of shots to see how they are before I make a final decision, where I can't try them the next best thing would be to find out why they appeal to other photographers.

Canon G9 - YN602 trigger firing bare YN560 flash (camera right) mixed with hot light (camera left)


Canon 20D - YN602 trigger firing Canon 580EX flash through shoot through umbrella (camera right)


Mamiya RB67 - YN602 trigger firing Canon 580EX flash through shoot through umbrella (camera right)


Canon 50D - YN602 trigger firing bare YN560 flash (camera left) - i was shooting at 400mm so pretty far from subject and flash


Canon 50D - YN602 trigger firing bare Canon 580EX flash (camera right)


Canon 50D - YN602 trigger firing studio strobe through shoot through umbrella (camera left) YN602 trigger firing YN560 bare (behind subject camera right) YN602 trigger firing YN560 bare (camera right)


Canon 7D - YN622C trigger firing YN568EX TTL in Softbox (camera right)


Canon 7D - YN622C tirgger firing YN568EX TTL though shoot through umbrella (camera right)

[Saracen]

Nice shots there, Bobster ....though as a pro, I guess they ought to be. There's something I especially like about the girl with platinum and turqoise hair (or wig?). Partly, it's the unusual hair, and partly, that ever-so-slight hint of a pout in her expression. But whatever it is, it's beautifully captured, and shows perfectly what can be done with a relatively simple lighting setup .... and without using three grand's worth of Bowen's studio stuff, and ceiling-mounted lighting rails.

I don't know if you work from a studio, or visit people's home for "on-site" shoots, but do you ever find people expect loads of fancy, complicated-looking stuff from a pro, and worry or look down a bit at it if you use "amateur" gear?

[KeyboardDemon]

like a wall or ceiling?

Maybe I'm using the wrong term when I talk about a diffuser, I thought it was a common photographic term, when I talk about a diffuser I'm talking about something that can be attached to a flash in order to soften the light and/or spread the light so that it is less direct or not as harsh when it reaches the subject, something along the lines of a Stofen, a rogue Diffusion panel or like one of these, as you can see I haven't worked out which type I want.

I don't know if you work from a studio, or visit people's home for "on-site" shoots, but do you ever find people expect loads of fancy, complicated-looking stuff from a pro, and worry or look down a bit at it if you use "amateur" gear?

This is a great question, it got me thinking. I think it might be partly this that has me worrying about what hardware to get, when people see me pulling out flashlights and propping them onto stands instead of using 'proper' studio flashes they might not think I can do as good a job as a pro using more expensive 'high end' gear.

[KeyboardDemon]

Ok. I've found more on diffusers, or the Stofen type of diffusers versus a two flash, off camera setup with a remote, and it looks like Bobster's setup would make for better pictures from the start, so back to the drawing board for me, at least for now anyway.

Stofen vs 2 flashes off camera