Can I ask for some words of advice from some of the pro photographers on here please.

[KeyboardDemon]

I have been asked to shoot some photographs of a an apartment by a friend who's company supplies furniture to the trade. He has asked me to give him a quotation for the work and has promised me repeat work if they are happy with the results.

So the most important question is, how much should I charge?

I think we are talking about 2 to 4 hours work here, in actual shooting time and then photoshop/lightroom work in getting the pictures ready for him to use on his web site.

The next question is what would be the best way to approach this project?

The apartment won't be ready before around 4pm, so I'd imagine it would be getting dark or quite dark when I do the shoot.

[g8ina]

Bobster's yer man for this.

[KeyboardDemon]

Hopefully he will see this soon then. Thanks for the suggestion though, I might send a PM if I haven't heard by the time I get home from work tomorrow.

[TheAnimus]

Maybe some good ole economics analysis....

How much will someone else charge. How much can the client afford. How much would you earn doing something else.

[Bobster]

half day / full day rates vary from location to location

also how much is your time worth?

how much money will these people be making by selling these goods?

are you sure it will only be 4 hours tops? (i take it you've shot this kind of thing before?)

yes you're right - sun sets at 4:05PM - being able to control light will definitely be of advantage..

worth noting that furniture is usually shot in a studio using false walls and windows. (£200+ an hour)

[KeyboardDemon]

Thanks Bobster, the point of the shoot is to show the furniture in a finished apartment. But yeah, there's no reason why an apartment couldn't be created in a studio where we have total control of the lighting.

Utimately he wants no more than 8 to 10 pictures that will be used on the company website. I have two strobes (a Canon and Nissin flash) with remotes, and stands, I was thinking about point the flashes at the walls to get these to reflect diffused light into the room and create a more even flat lighting with minimal hot-spots.

I spoke to a photographer I know today and he said that I should look at £400 as a reasonable rate for a day and £250 as a half day, but then another photographer I know said I should say £2000 for the day, let them think it over and then her method is to say something along the lines of, "Ok, we haven't worked together before, I don't know you and you don't know me, I'd be willing to give you a lower price so we can see how we get on but then I'd charge the normal rate afterwards". She said that for her this works well as she gets lots of people coming back and asking her if she can do the work at her 'mates' rate and they use her as they think they are getting a bona fide good deal. Not sure I could use that approach with a friend though, but I like the concept.

[Saracen]

Be cautious about the promise of "repeat work". Firstly, whose decision is that, you friend, or someone else at his company?

Secondly, I don't know how good a friend your friend is, but anyone that's been in business any length of time will tell you it's a common stunt to get a bargain. In this case, being a "friend" it MIGHT be genuine, and certainly there are occasions when it is, but you have to make a call on that.

If there is a decent chance of regular work, it might be worth a punt. I once approached a magazine and offered to do an 800 word review with no commitment, other than that IF they liked and used it, they paid for it. They liked it, wanted it expanded to 3000 words and made it the next issue's cover story. And it led to a regular stream of commissions. So it can work.

But as a general principle, I give it a wide berth. I'd rather work at normal rates for a one-off, but if a CONTRACT for regular work is offered, then I'll look at reduced rates .... if and when it starts.

I have come across so many occasions, personally and with friends in business, when we've discussed it, that the consensus is that if it's bread today-jam tomorrow, tomorrow's jam often doesn't come, and next time, they offer someone else the same jam-tomorrow deal. I also know a few people who offer that deal, with exactly the intention of doing that.

I grant you, I'm just a tad cynical these days, and not desperate for any job, but my view is that I'm worth what I charge and have the history to prove it, so 'promise of future work'?? I'll count those chickens when they hatch, and not until.

So .... just be cautious about that. It may be genuine, it may not.

[KeyboardDemon]

Thanks Saracen, it's a helpful insight.

The friend is a close family friend, my parents and his are very close and we ourselves have been good friends for as long as I remember. I've known him since birth, though only being a few years older than him I don't remember his birth.

The company is one he started with a single partner, he is the Financial Director. That doesn't mean I will get the promised jam, but it does mean he would not try and play me. The company is not a small one though, and he wants everything to be done property, so he is expecting a quotation, contract and then invoice on delivery of the work.

When he says he will promote my business if he likes the results then I have no reason to doubt him. But I am inexperienced, he knows this, though he has seen my pictures and likes them enough to think he could use them on his company's website.

[Saracen]

It all sounds good, then. Given what you say, I'd probably take it at face value, too. And, as very possibly a great opportunity.

From what you say, personally, I think my stance would be to try to be utterly professional with my friend, and try to come up with a price point that's fair, both to him and me. But above all, be professional. It sounds like he'll respect that.

So, charge a reasonable for for time and expertise, and perhaps broach the subject of there being scope for negotiation for regular work.

One thing .... how much of a favour are you being done by giving you the opportunity?

You MIGHT want to suggest that IF they like and use the pictures, your fee is £x. But if they don't like and don't use them, well, because it's a favour (if it is), there will be no charge. That way, his risk for doing you a favour and trying you is minimised.

But whatever, it's always a bit tricky gaving a professional business relationship with a friend. There's always a risk of tensions in that.

As for how much £x should be, I've no idea. There are so many variables in that, and it's not my area. I do sometimes charge for photography, if it's needed, but it's an incidental, not core service.

[scaryjim]

... another photographer I know said I should say £2000 for the day, let them think it over and then her method is to say something along the lines of, "Ok, we haven't worked together before, I don't know you and you don't know me, I'd be willing to give you a lower price so we can see how we get on but then I'd charge the normal rate afterwards". ...

... he wants everything to be done property, so he is expecting a quotation ...

I honestly don't think you want to try to play your friend the way the lass in the first quote seems to play. I don't think I'd get as far as the bit where she generously offers to work with me for less money: someone says to me "Here's a quote <high price>, I'll let you think it over", I wouldn't need time to think. I'd move straight on to the next quote. Your friend is obviously trying to approach this in a business-like manner, so play it straight, and business-like.

But what you can do, quite legitimately, and this works out well for you and your friend, is apply a first order discount to your quotation. So you quote for "Standard day rate - £500; First order 20% discount - £100; Total - £400". Your friend is expecting a quote, you're giving him a good rate, and no-one gets a surprise if he asks you to work with him again and you ask for £500 a day instead of £400, because your standard day rate is right there in the original quote.
Obviously all numbers in this example are pulled out of thin air, don't regard them as recommendations

[Bobster]

as you're in London, double whatever number you come up with!

[KeyboardDemon]

If there is a decent chance of regular work, it might be worth a punt. I once approached a magazine and offered to do an 800 word review with no commitment, other than that IF they liked and used it, they paid for it. They liked it, wanted it expanded to 3000 words and made it the next issue's cover story. And it led to a regular stream of commissions. So it can work.

I'll discuss this with him when I see him on Saturday to work out the details. I might even ask him to help me set up my accounts software for me and give him back some of the money I charge him as a consultancy fee.

@Bobster: lol, you cheeky monkey or should I say Bob cat? I like the way you think though.

@scaryjim: I wouldn't play my friend, but wanted to illustrate the range of prices that people ask for, however I think a daily rate of between £300 to £500 seems to be the norm for a shoot, so I might go with the idea of using the £500 with 20% first timer discount. Then charge for post production seperately.

Thanks for your advice guys, it has been much appreciated.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Out of interest wha gear do you have,ie, in terms of lenses and cameras??

[KeyboardDemon]

Ok. It's been a while getting back to answer your question Cat but my key equipment list is below.

We agreed on £200 flat fee for the afternoon's work, output will be provided as raw+jpg images and the post-production will be by his web developer to ensure it matches all other images being used on his site.

I'll be using:

Canon 5d Mk ii + 24-105mm Lens kit + Sigma 17-35mm lens
Nissin Di866 Mk ii Speedlite + Canon 430EX II and Hahnel Combi TF Remote Control & Flash Trigger + Hahnel Combi TF additional Remote Receiver for second flash
Manfrotto CF C190X3 Tripod
2 Universal hot shoe flash holders
2 Lightstands for mounting the flashes

[Bobster]

never supply RAW - 16bit TIFF if needed, but never RAW..

[KeyboardDemon]

never supply RAW - 16bit TIFF if needed, but never RAW..

Excuse my naivety here, but what's wrong with supplying RAW? And what does 16bit TIFF offer instead of RAW?