Cit m-500u

[Tattysnuc]

Hi,

I'm looking at a minit ITX build for a water cooled media centre rig (ie small and silent) but that I can re-use my old hardware (GTX 8800 or GTX 285) to fold in also.

Over the years I've accumulated:

1. Old Shuttle Case
2. Q6600 G0 - OVerclocks to 3ghz with no V increase on my ITX board.
3. Zotac Geforce 9300 ITX board
4. Various 2.5" mechanical hard drvies
5. GTX 285 OR 8800 depends on what I can get away with power draw wise.
6. CPU water blocks, hosing and fittings
7. 2 Gb of generic DDR 2 ram
8. 2xPhobya double width 1.120 rad
9. Llang D5 with res top
10. Liliput 7" touch screen

The idea being that the Piano black Shuttle case be modded to fit the board, and then it would sit in my front room and be controlled via the touch screen. The problem I ma having is with what power supply to use.

I want something small enough to fit into the Shguttle case, but I don't have the shuttle one - it was only an ATX one (not ATX 2.x) and also it was only 150 Watts, plus finlaly, it made a racket.

I found and inexpensive one on Scan a while back, so bought that - it's made by CIT (model is M-500U) and rated at 500W. I reckon that it should do the job, but have no idea how to check what power will be used on what lane by the components I'm listing above. Any ideas?

The PSU reads:

+3.3v = 28A
+5v = 30A
+12V1 = 14A
+12V2 = 13A
+5Vsb = 2.5A

with the 3.3 and 5v coming to 120W, and the total power rating (on the unit anyway) showing as 500W.

My GTX 8800 is rated at 145W, so that was where I was going to start, but the 285 is only 204W
The CPU is 95W I think, but overclocked that'll likely be 115W

I've plugge this all into http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine and that comes out at 409W, which looks fine, but because the PSU is a bit of an unknown, I'd like some guidance, reassurance, or just plain good old fashioned advise. I don't believe that a full PSU will fit intot he case with all that I have planned.

Does anyone have any experience with these PSU's?
OR, can you recommend something thats VERY small that'll handle these power requirements?

[peterb]

There was a brief thread about cit PSUs here:

http://forums.hexus.net/pc-hardware/...ce-anyone.html

A quick Google search shows that these PSUs are available for around £25 upwards. No idea what you paid for yours, but that cost for that claimed power delivery puts it at the lower end of the market for quality, if not in the 'cheap 'n' nasty' category.

It will probably do the job for something not very demanding, but I personally wouldn't want to use it with anything expensive, or anywhere near the claimed power output.

However that is only an opinion. I haven't used or inspected one of these units, but experience as an engineer tells me that to sell something like that at that price, something has been skimped on.

[Noxvayl]

That power supply(PSU) won't handle a Q6600 and GTX285 with only 13A + 14A on the 12v rails, that's assuming it can actually handle it's rated specifications. Using the 8800 you *might* get away with it but I wouldn't recommend that PSU for the components you've listed.

You should have more than 30A on the 12v rails to be able to accommodate those cards. That PSU falls short, while it *may* be able to handle the 8800 series card I wouldn't chance it because you are unsure of the quality of the PSU so it could easily blow and take everything else with it.

For a shuttle case I wouldn't want to try fitting those graphics cards in, they'll need more power than mATX PSU's can handle. I'd rather get a cheap HD6570 or HD6670 and a decent PSU like Be Quiet 350W.

You aren't looking to play games with the machine so you are better off selling those old cards to pay for a cheap low end graphics card.

What ever you decide I would just throw that PSU away, it's not worth the risk of it frying the rest of your machine.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Avoid CiT!!

The OP should get hold of a FSP or Seasonic flexATX PSU as these should fit the Shuttle fine.

The current Shuttle units are based on industrial FSP flexATX PSUs.

I have modded a Shuttle G2 case myself with an H67 based mini-ITX motherboard:

http://forums.hexus.net/motherboards...x-rebuild.html

I use a Shuttle PC63J 500W PSU and it runs an HD5850 1GB and a Core i3 2100 fine.

[Tattysnuc]

Thanks guys. The CIT was on offer on Scan AGES ago, and came in at £12.

I might just see if I can recycle my Zalman PSU instead of using the the CIT one.... That defiitely handles the load as I've mocked it all up an had it running fine for months. Will have a go at that tomorrow.

Thanks for the words of Caution. Really glad I ran that by you good folks!

[Agent]

I've plugge this all into http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine and that comes out at 409W, which looks fine, but because the PSU is a bit of an unknown, I'd like some guidance, reassurance, or just plain good old fashioned advise. I don't believe that a full PSU will fit intot he case with all that I have planned.

Good job you did, as that PSU calc is useless

http://forums.hexus.net/pc-hardware/...culator-9.html

Check the last few posts, namely the one by this_is_gav.

[Noxvayl]

Good job you did, as that PSU calc is useless

No it isn't, you're being way too negative. Of course the calculator doesn't give a comprehensive evaluation but it gives a very good general indicator which can be useful.

For example: I want a Seasonic PSU. The prices vary with a large range of power ratings. Enter details into PSU calculator and you can get an idea of what range to look in, this can save you some time and possibly money because you don't go buying a power supply that will only use 20% of it's capacity.

Saying a blanket statement like: "It's useless" is not helpful at all. There are uses for it so long as the user is aware that it is a general indicator and other key aspects of a power supply need to be reviewed in conjunction with it.

[Agent]

No it isn't, you're being way too negative......Saying a blanket statement like: "It's useless" is not helpful at all. There are uses for it so long as the user is aware that it is a general indicator and other key aspects of a power supply need to be reviewed in conjunction with it.

I didn't just say "It 's Useless" - I linked to the reasons why it's useless, you could have gone and read them. It still doesn't change the fact that it is useless, no matter how 'negative' you may think I'm being.


The key points with it:

You're essentially advertising your (or someone's) Pro product. By your own admission you (or the company you publicise) deliberately mislead customers through only publishing wattages in your (or the company you publicise) 'lite' package, and force them to purchase the 'pro' package to gain access to the actual representative figures? Wattage means nothing in PCs - by choosing to leave amp figures out of your (need I repeat?) free lite packing your (...) website is essentially worthless, and merely an advertising front.

But it doesn't give you a general idea if the people it's aimed at (casual techies who have no real idea what they're looking for) just see 480w or something, and go out and buy the first ~480w PSU they see. It's of no benefit at all. The people who do know that a cheapy PSU is useless generally won't need your tool anyway, be it pro or lite.

Without using the full paid version, the site offers Watts only.
On their own, this is useless. The Amps that you *need* to take into consideration when buying a unit are not presented by default.

Take your Seasonic example and change the brand to Q-tec / CiT / or any other crap brand. See the problem? They all advertise a Wattage that the calculator will say can be used.

This is from the top of the page:

The recommended total Power Supply Wattage gives you a general idea on what to look for BUT it is NOT a crucial factor in power supply selection! Total Amperage Available on the +12V Rail(s) is the most important, followed by the +5V amperage and then the +3.3V amperage.

The bold parts are theirs.
Lets just quote the important part on its own:

NOT a crucial factor in power supply selection!

Yup, you read right. Even the markers say that Wattage isn't a crucial factor in power supply selection.

But putting all that to one side - unless things have changed, the values it gave were off anyway.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Thanks guys. The CIT was on offer on Scan AGES ago, and came in at £12.

I might just see if I can recycle my Zalman PSU instead of using the the CIT one.... That defiitely handles the load as I've mocked it all up an had it running fine for months. Will have a go at that tomorrow.

Thanks for the words of Caution. Really glad I ran that by you good folks!

What model number is your Shuttle case??

[Noxvayl]

@Agent

If you bothered to read my post you would of found these statements within it:

Of course the calculator doesn't give a comprehensive evaluation...

and

... so long as the user is aware that it is a general indicator and other key aspects of a power supply need to be reviewed in conjunction with it.

I am well aware that the information on it's own is not helpful. That doesn't mean the information is completely useless in all possible scenarios that exist. I am trying to point out that rigid dogmatic advice that doesn't recognise alternative options is not helpful.

The fact remains that there are scenario's where having a general indication(doesn't have to be accurate) of power draw for a system is useful. Your statement completely ignores this which is not helpful.

[Tattysnuc]

Again, thanks guys -

As with anything on the internet, one published article does not mean a definitive answer, this is why I always ask in 2 places: usually it's here and Bit-tech unless it's something specific, such as Phase change, I'll go over to Clunk or Extreme Overclockers etc.

Regarding the extreme-power-guide-Calculator-thingy, I now see why that is not the definitive answer - I've got to work out what draw for each "line". I'm not sure where to even begin with that to be honest. - anyone able to offer any guidance?

Thanks for all the constructive remarks - it's very much appreciated.

CAT-THE-FIFTH - I think that the Shuttle case is that of the SN95G5.

[Agent]

@Agent

If you bothered to read my post you would of found these statements within it:

and

I did 'bother' to read your post perfectly well. Putting words like "comprehensive evaluation" in there doesn't change that it produces a dubious, wattage only figure that's of no use on it's own for a PSU purchase.

The OP has a cheap CiT PSU, which the forum has pointed out to him isn't going to be sufficient due to it's quality, even though it's a "500 watt" unit, which if it was a Enermax for example, would have been plenty.

The fact that he could change the unit he has, for another higher quality brand of the same wattage proves how useless a wattage figure is on it's own.

I am well aware that the information on it's own is not helpful. That doesn't mean the information is completely useless in all possible scenarios that exist.

Maybe, in some extremely rare situations would you need the wattage of a computer PSU without caring about it's Amps or other features, but this is certainly not one of them. So why muddle the thread with vague comments like this?

There is not one situation where wattage is useful on it's own here to the OP.

I am trying to point out that rigid dogmatic advice that doesn't recognise alternative options is not helpful.

It depends on what the advice is on. In this situation, I stand by it 100%. PSU wattage on it's own is a useless metric.
As for your alternative options: What alternative options? Give some examples of what you're talking about here please.

Your previous comment of:

Enter details into PSU calculator and you can get an idea of what range to look in, this can save you some time and possibly money because you don't go buying a power supply that will only use 20% of it's capacity.

Seems to again be de-linking the other important factors of a PSU. You give the example of not buying a PSU that's over the limit of what you need - but you're again making a purchase based on:
a) Dubious figures from a calculator that don't seem to be accurate and
b) Totally ignoring the Amps of the unit, no matter if it's 20% load or not.

It's no point giving people a figure of it means they buy a 200watt Q-tec (or today's equivalent) as opposed to a 1000 watt version of the same brand. See my example at the bottom.
Again, You need to know the Amps required to make an informed PSU purchase.

The fact remains that there are scenario's where having a general indication(doesn't have to be accurate) of power draw for a system is useful. Your statement completely ignores this which is not helpful.

If you want a general idea, look up the power use (or estimate) of each component which takes no longer than a few minutes with Google, and you'll also roughly know how much Amps you need from the unit too.

If you don't believe how useless Wattage is with this calculator on it's own, take the following example on the calc:

Desktop system high end
Core i7 2600
2 sticks of RAM
GPU, Nvidia - 4 * 460 GTX 768MB
SLI
HDD
DVDRW

Is coming out with around 630Watt. So a a Q-Tec 650Watt fits the bill, right?

One final time: A single, ballpark figure of Watts is useless for a PSU decision. This calculator makes things worse by muddying the waters for those that really need solid advice.


If you can get in a situation where it looks like a cheap brand 650Watt PSU can power 4 *460GTXs and an i7, something is seriously wrong. Put the above in the calculator yourself and you'll see this can happen.

That's why Watts on it's own is useless.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

CAT-THE-FIFTH - I think that the Shuttle case is that of the SN95G5.

I have tried shoe-horning a full ATX PSU into a G2 case which should be around the same size:

http://forums.hexus.net/2121880-post82.html

However,it will mean you won't have much space for the graphics card.

A smaller PSU might be possible to mount on the back although it would mean you have very little clearance for the CPU cooler. Smaller PSUs include the FSP made Be Quiet SFX power and Silverstone SG05 and SG06 PSUs:

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/350w-...-v32-sfx-power

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/450w-...-quiet-fan-sfx

However,it will probably mean your hard drive cage won't fit.

TBH,if you want to save yourself time and effort just get one of these PSUs:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Shuttl...item2eb842233c

BTW,these are the people I got my one from and the price is very cheap as they usually are around £90 to £100. The unit is also made by FSP and based on the industrial flexATX PSUs AFAIK.

If you look in this thread the PSU fits a G2 case fine:

http://forums.hexus.net/motherboards...x-rebuild.html

ATM,I am running a Core i3 2100,HD5850 1GB,8GB of DDR3,two SATA hard drives and an SSD. The unit is in the end socket 1366 Shuttle systems and is meant to be able to run a Core i7 and a high end card like a GTX570 fine.

[Noxvayl]

@ Agent

You've completely misunderstood my posts. My problem is that you use vague language that doesn't convey the meaning you are thinking of; "that PSU calc is useless" does not mean "watts on it's own is useless". When I pointed out the flaw in the first phrase you thought I was against the second even though I clearly indicated otherwise.

We are bound by the language we use so it is of the utmost importance to use it properly- if we don't we fail to convey meaning effectively and argue about things because of incorrect referents.

You should seriously read this: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/writi...ibilities.html

[Agent]

@ Agent

You've completely misunderstood my posts.

I've not misunderstood them, I just disagree with parts of them.
I've quoted the things I disagree with and stated why, I'm hardly being vague here.

In your original post you stated:

Enter details into PSU calculator and you can get an idea of what range to look in

Which I believe to be wrong. Wattage 'range' on it's own is useless, hence the Q-tec example.
This isn't a vague comment, I'm not 'misunderstood' your posts - I've quoted the text and have stated that I think it's wrong, with the reason why.
If you want to disagree with me, fine - but let's not go down the road of claiming I've misunderstood what you've said when I'm crystal clear what you've stated due to the quote.

My problem is that you use vague language that doesn't convey the meaning you are thinking of; "that PSU calc is useless" does not mean "watts on it's own is useless".

Sorry, but short of being a mindreader, you have no idea of what I'm thinking of. I said what I thought because it's what I wanted to say. End off. There is nothing to interpret about it, there is no 'conveying the meaning' with what I wanted to say. I said what I intended to say, please don't to try to correct me based on what you think I'm 'thinking' of.

You claimed in the line above, and I quote again,

idea of what range to look in

The only 'range' it gives you in the free version is Watts. There is no other range you could be possibly be talking about. I am simply pointing out that using this tool to get an idea of the range is wrong, to which you said:

No it isn't,

Neither of these statements are vague. If you want to disagree - fine, lets do that, but lets not get hooked on word play here and deal with the actual issue at hand.

Secondly, it's also useless because as I've already said, the numbers are off.

We are bound by the language we use so it is of the utmost importance to use it properly- if we don't we fail to convey meaning effectively and argue about things because of incorrect referents.

This is an internet forum, not a work of Shakespeare. You've been on the internet for a number of years, you should be well aware of this.

I find it strange that you've resulted into trying to attack the language used, rather than the issue at hand - which is the results produced by said calculator and us disagreeing on it's usefulness.

Lets debate the figures it throws out, compare them to known ones, prove or disprove its usefulness.....but debating words on how our differences are presented? Not the most productive use of my (and presumably your) time.

You should seriously read this: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/writi...ibilities.html

Have we really got to the point where you're not actually willing to debate the issue that's going to help the OP and are now linking me to 'how to write' pages?

Be sure to post the link to other members, like TheAnimus who I'm sure would welcome to smallest issues with his writing to be flagged up by yourself.

I've no doubt you'll reply to this now and point out any further grammatical errors, but I'll draw the line with my last reply in this thread to you here.
If you want to take it over to PM though so we don't further fill this thread with ramblings (from both of us), then that would be fantastic, but I suspect I'll be reading it in this thread though

Regards