Never mind fox hunting.....

[G4Z]

I shall point out again that the vast majority of the people involved in hunting are there to enjoy the social and riding aspect of the hunt. The fact that they are chasing a fox is pretty much an irrelevance to them. They are not there to enjoy killing an animal. Those that are directly involved in the killing of the fox do not enjoy it, to them it is just a job in much the same way as it is to a slaughterman.

then I understand the need to do this even less, so your saying that its all a social thing and if you ban hunting your effectivly breaking up a social group? If the fun in it is not the hunting but the social and riding element, then why dont you all just go riding or go to the pub?

maybe you could all just go in your daft red jackets and still feel like your on the hunt without actually killing the animals.

[Big RICHARD]

If the hunts are to keep numbers of foxes down, then why are foxes bred specially to be hunted? I think that this is BS being fed from the pro-hunting crew.

I believe that there is as much BS from each side and it is up to the public to try and pick out the actual truth from it all.

Personally, I think there are much more humane ways of dealing with a fox problem (if there is one!) than are currently being employed and something could be done about it tbh!

[daniel_owen_uk]

I haven't read all this thread so excuse me if this has been said already, but the PM in question probably thought that the person who wrote to him either

A) Couldn't see the flaws in there arguements (that being that said cat was not under instruction by humans and only acting in a natural way).

or

B) You were taking the fish (not fish but you know what I mean )

[Angus]

If the hunts are to keep numbers of foxes down, then why are foxes bred specially to be hunted? I think that this is BS being fed from the pro-hunting crew.

I believe that there is as much BS from each side and it is up to the public to try and pick out the actual truth from it all.

Personally, I think there are much more humane ways of dealing with a fox problem (if there is one!) than are currently being employed and something could be done about it tbh!

Just out of interest.

Where did you get your information on "Fox Breeding" from?

[Big RICHARD]

Just out of interest.

Where did you get your information on "Fox Breeding" from?

It was said by somebody, who was into fox hunting, on a documentary about it a while ago.

Also:

--LINKY--

[chriscom]

I notice the woman so happy to defend such barbarity has gone quiet when faced with evidence that hunting has nothing to do with pest control and is little more than the dressing up of mindless cruelty.

[Angus]

Even some among the hunting fraternity admit that some hunts use artificial earths and leave out animal carcasses to ensure a plentiful fox population. 'A few hunts do it and I have to say that I disapprove of it totally,' said Janet George, co-founder of the Countryside Action Network. 'There is no need to encourage them to breed. They will breed anywhere anyway.'

I'd suggest that this is the opinion of a large number of the pro-hunt lobby. We shouldn't ban athletics because there's a minority that take drugs surely?

[spikegifted]

The only reason fox hunting isn't banned is cos its enjoyed by the great and good.

[Just to get it out of the way first: I'm not for or against fox hunting. I don't really care what they want to do with their spare time - it's up to them, they're not shooting at people. Whether there's pain and suffering done to the animals, I don't know and, to be completely honestly with you, we, as a society, are more cruel to our fellow humans than we're to some of our 'pets' so I think we're in no position to make a judgment!]

So are you suggesting that just because a 'majority' of people don't part take or don't even approve of fox hunting, there should be a law to ban it? What kind of a society do you think we live in? As far as I know, we live in a liberal democratic society where people can pretty much do what they like as long as they don't break the law. Now are you suggesting that we should create a law to stop people from doing something they enjoy just because you don't part take or even understand (nor want to)? What do you think this country is? Some kind of a Nazi police state?

By the looks of things, your attitude is consistent with the Bolshevik Communist in the Soviet Union - you're against something probably not because you genuinely care about any particular issues, but you're prefer to look at it as a 'class struggle'. Well, that's just pathetic!

Lots of people don't like ramblers because they 'trespass' on their land another 'important things' (like golf courses!). However, there's a law out there protecting the right to ramble in certain designated areas, through private land as well. Guess what, your attitude suggests that if you've a 'thing' against ramblers, you'd think it is entirely justifiable to change the law and remove that right...

Some dictators are considerate that you're.

[spikegifted]

the foxes in the city is not because there numbers are so swollen they are migrating but rather that our cities are more and more infringing into their habitat.

This comment of yours simply devoid of all knowledge, logic and common sense, which is pretty much what I'd expect from a self-obsessed 'class hero'.

Foxes survive and thrive in cities not simply because humans have built into or eliminated their natural habitat. More accurately speaking, foxes and other animals have carried out a 'reverse takeover' of human habitats - simply because they're intelligent and adaptable. They found that humans actually throws out a large amount of eatable material as garbage and as our societies 'advance' or 'make progress' we become more wasteful, which in turn means more food for them.

[chriscom]

I'd suggest that this is the opinion of a large number of the pro-hunt lobby. We shouldn't ban athletics because there's a minority that take drugs surely?

The whole point of creating false dens is so there is something to hunt goes against the so called reason for hunting. The Hunt are claiming to provide a service in order to keep down the number of Pests and thus protect the farmer and livestock. Yet, if they don't have anything to hunt they are introducing foxes into the community so they can hunt. They are thus creating a problem they claim to be solving.

Your analogy of cheating would be better used on the subject matter of bagging. Here a fox is caught a day or two before the day of a hunt, it then has its pads split so that a) it can't run fast, and B) the scent is really good.
It is then let out the bag on the first draw by a terrierman whilst the huntspeople enjoy a nice drink before the ride.
This enables a hunt that is not as efficient as others to ensure a kill in the same way as an athlete who is not as good may take steriods in order to compete with those who are better than him.

[chriscom]

[Just to get it out of the way first: I'm not for or against fox hunting. I don't really care what they want to do with their spare time - it's up to them, they're not shooting at people. Whether there's pain and suffering done to the animals, I don't know
A little thought on what’s it like to be chased to exhaustion and then ripped to pieces and I’m sure even the most hardened person will admit can’t be a pleasant experience.
Furthermore, it is not only the foxes that suffer but the hounds, most suffer from deep cuts from barbed wire fences, attempting to run through bramble bushes, being hit by cars and that is not including the number that have died on rail lines. To add to this, if a hound doesn't make the grade and fails to become a decent hunting dog it is shot as are those who are no longer deemed adequate hunters.

and, to be completely honestly with you, we, as a society, are more cruel to our fellow humans than we're to some of our 'pets' so I think we're in no position to make a judgment!]
So because we are cruel to humans it is alright to also be cruel to animals? Surely the aim of any great and just society would be the removal of all forms of cruelty.
from the great man himself Ghandi "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."
Mohandas Gandhi

So are you suggesting that just because a 'majority' of people don't part take or don't even approve of fox hunting, there should be a law to ban it? What kind of a society do you think we live in? As far as I know, we live in a liberal democratic society where people can pretty much do what they like as long as they don't break the law.

And how are laws made? Laws are not static, they change in time. Badger baiting, cock fighting to name just two are recently made laws. It wasn’t until something like 1991 that rape within marriage was criminalized. So by your argument are you saying rape was Right up until this point?

Now are you suggesting that we should create a law to stop people from doing something they enjoy just because you don't part take or even understand (nor want to)? What do you think this country is? Some kind of a Nazi police state?

People aren’t saying Fox Hunting should be banned because people enjoy it, they are saying it should be banned because it is cruel and unnecessary. It has nothing to do with living in a police state.

By the looks of things, your attitude is consistent with the Bolshevik Communist in the Soviet Union - you're against something probably not because you genuinely care about any particular issues, but you're prefer to look at it as a 'class struggle'. Well, that's just pathetic! ...
Some dictators are considerate that you're.

[TeePee]

Furthermore, it is not only the foxes that suffer but the hounds, most suffer from deep cuts from barbed wire fences, attempting to run through bramble bushes, being hit by cars and that is not including the number that have died on rail lines. To add to this, if a hound doesn't make the grade and fails to become a decent hunting dog it is shot as are those who are no longer deemed adequate hunters.

I take it you are also against horse racing, since horses are often injured due to falls in the race and those which have mild but career-ending injuries are shot.
Foxes are not our animals, they do not belong to anyone. The animals Ghandi was refering to are posessions such as horses and dogs.

[Russ]

how can foxes be vermin? what do they do? hunt for food, occasionly fun?

in that case i agree, shoot them, hunting for fun, how dare they, only we HUMANS kings of the world may sluaghter animals. cheeky bastard foxes. thinking there special and can kill chickens for food, im glad the 1 i had for my tea last night wasn't bread in captivity and his sole purpose in life wasnt to become a foxes dinner.

damn foxes

see my point anyone?

[Rythmic]

I personnally grew up in Somerset, and I spoke to about this to a few farmers - they hated the hunters (or 'toffs'/'tarted up pansies' - well there where some other words as well, but I can't put them here...) - cause they caused damage to their crops and fences. And their effectiveness was minimal. The farmers still had to shoot foxes (with the trusty double barreled shotgun - one to take em down, one to finish them off). Yes, this is time consuming and frustrating, but in my mind this is more humane than setting packs of dogs on them for hours.

The hunts used to meet up about 12 years ago in the centre of the village - they don't anymore - thats what the public opinion is like.

[chriscom]

I take it you are also against horse racing, since horses are often injured due to falls in the race and those which have mild but career-ending injuries are shot.
Foxes are not our animals, they do not belong to anyone. The animals Ghandi was refering to are posessions such as horses and dogs.

You'll find that Ghandi was an advocate for all animals, not just those that are "possessions". Ghandi saw all life as sacred and was against cruelty of any kind.

"I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to the protection by man from the cruelty of man."

[TeePee]

But the 'How people treat their animals' quote refers to posessions, or beasts of burden. He was being critical of people who work their animals too hard.

A dictionary definition of vermin: '(1) any of various small animals or insects that are destructive, annoying, or injurious to health, such as cockroaches or rats. (2) Any of various animals that prey on game, as the fox or weasel.'

In the modern world, foxes rarely fit the second definition, but they certainly fit the first. They are a destructive small animal which spreads disease, like a large rat.

Shooting is only less cruel if they finish the job. If the farmer isn't too accurate and only hits the fox with a few pellets then it will take a few weeks for the wound to get infected and a lingering death. At least at the end of a few hours hunting there is either a dead fox or a healthy (and very fast) one.