Death Penalty Poll - In Brief

[Blitzen]

Interesting take. I seem to recall you were in the forces, right? Explains a lot.

How far back are you going to take this mass deportation plan of yours? You've never benefited from the fact that we have a "melting pot" culture? You've never enjoyed a good curry? Never listened to any music of black origin? I personally think it's wonderful that we have the mix of cultures that we have, however this obviously extends to the fact that people like the BNP are as entitled to their opinion asanyone else.

I'll say nothing more on the matter, this being requested as an "in brief" thread rather than a debate.

Why does me being ex-forces explain alot?
It has nothing to do with it so i am not sure what you are imagining.

I never said anything about any kind of mass deprtation either so how your mind works is very mysterious. I love a good curry.......i also like music from black origins....once again, absolutely NOTHING to do with my comment.

A BNP comment aswell............in your mind am i also associated with that?

Come on.....at least engage your brain a little.
I dont care whether the criminal is originally from ANYWHERE in the world. I said nothing at all regarding any particualr faith/culture/country which is obviously what you are fishing for.

[mediaboy]

Blitzen...

The best way to save money is to deport ANYONE that isn't a born UK citizen back to their country of origin. Someone else can then foot the bill.

What were you just saying about not suggesting mass deportion?

It certainly reads that way, although I - when I reread it - presumed that you meant people that committed crimes.

Out of interest, what about second-generation families? Those that have now had children born and brought up in the UK? If their first-generation parents were to commit a crime, would the whole family be deported? If the second-generation children were to break the law, would they be deported?

Same question applies to any foreign family actually.. if one member of the family commits a crime, are all of them punished for it?

[Blitzen]

It certainly reads that way, although I - when I reread it - presumed that you meant people that committed crimes.

Thats exactly what i meant. Certainly not just deport everyone Splash read what he wanted to read rather than actually think about what i put.

Out of interest, what about second-generation families? Those that have now had children born and brought up in the UK? If their first-generation parents were to commit a crime, would the whole family be deported? If the second-generation children were to break the law, would they be deported?

Same question applies to any foreign family actually.. if one member of the family commits a crime, are all of them punished for it?

No...just the offender.
Then, if the immediate family of the criminal decides to stay or leave with the offender its their choice. This is the same as it being the offenders choice to put his/hers family in this awkward predicament in the first place. People may think about their actions more then.

[0iD]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...re/7688929.stm
For people like this, I think it is wholly justified.

The only real monsters in this world are all human.

[pollaxe]

Bloody rotten..

Instinctively, I agree - execute the @#!* - but I don't like my gut reaction and I'd argue the law and justice should also be from a slightly higher place.

Hard though it is to have a rational consideration given scum like this. Even as I'm typing this I'm hoping he'll be getting regular kickings in prison but again, that's a visceral, human reaction.

Human beings suck.

[Stewart]

See, you convince yourself that for people like that, your instinct says hang the animal, then you realise the civilised thing to do is keep him alive, try to understand why he did what he did, rehabilitate, etc.

The correct, and therefore civilised thing to do to people like that, is to humanely and as painlessly as possible, give them a one way ticket.

Allowing people like that to carry on with their lives, the only difference being they are locked up at night in a cell, is not civilised.

Being civilised does not mean failing to act, and it does not mean being unable to carry out harsh punishments.

[pollaxe]

I hear ya but my main problem with the death penalty is the error factor. I can't remember the exact name of the programme it was a show I watched as a teenager called something like 30 Days in May and it followed a guy in the USA who was sent to the gas chamber. The evidence against him was, at best, flimsy and he was subsequently shown to have been innocent of the charge. It was an extremely depressing programme and set me against the death penalty as a result.

Now the scumbag referred to above arguably deserves death and there are probably many more like him but is it worth the risk of even a hundred scumbags for the inevitable innocent life that will end up getting lost? That's the risk and for me, it's not a risk we should be taking. Ostensibly, as a civilised society I don't think it's something we should do that's why I don't trust my gut, human reaction (which is that this @#*! should be strung-up from the nearest tree.)

I suppose it also depends on what justice is supposed to achieve - punishment, rehabilitation or both? Vengeance?

Interestingly (or not) a good friend of mine does something like social work (child care and the like.) She's come from an extremely abusive childhood and went into her career to help people and do what she can to stop others experiencing the kind of upbringing she had. We often argue about some of the people she deals with (many of whom are - let me be charitable - scrounging, violent, chavtastic ratbags) and how they should be treated. I take the Devil's Advocate position that they shouldn't be helped but they should be punished. She always takes the difficult background and other mitigating circumstances. Now she's more qualified than I am (professionally and from her own background - my childhood was about as close to ideal as you can get) and I noticed the murdering scumbag cited above is in the lowest 1% intelligence bracket. Not an excuse, not an explanation or a reason but as my instinct is that he should have something similar done to him I would rather the State took a more intellectually cool position than my own. Would justice be done by executing him? Possibly, I'm not sure (my inner voice would wish him good riddance) but I wouldn't like to be part of a modern Britain who does this.

Please excuse this discursive and possibly contradictory post - I'm heavily dosed-up on Lemsips and such due to a slight touch of Black Death at the moment.

[0iD]

I hear you Pollaxe, it's oh so difficult to be objective about such an emotive subject.

[Fraz]

Against, because if we're to be human then we should rise above the level of animals and the mob mentality.

Yeah, but let's face it: what percentage of the human populace is actually human?

[Stewart]

Well we will just have to lock him up in a cell at night then, allow him to live his life, eat, drink, relax, think, watch a bit of telly, blah, blah.

After all, why should he loose anything more than his freedom? He only murdered a baby by snapping its spine in half.

Lets not get uncivilised about it.

[Airlemental]

Against. Can be put to better use (eg. slave labour).

I Like that idea.

[pollaxe]

Well we will just have to lock him up in a cell at night then, allow him to live his life, eat, drink, relax, think, watch a bit of telly, blah, blah.

After all, why should he loose anything more than his freedom? He only murdered a baby by snapping its spine in half.

Lets not get uncivilised about it.

Just like Ian Brady, Ian Huntley and the multitude of other scumbags we are paying for, of course.

I don't like the idea any more than you do but I believe our judicial system is not good enough to prevent miscarriages of justice and for me, even one innocent life lost would not be a fair trade. Is that a price you think is worth paying in society? I asked above what your idea of justice is, I'd be interested to hear it. Would you think justice would be better served by the swift, painless, humane method of execution you proposed or make him hurt before he goes out? Or, would a lifetime (or at least decades) of punishment be more appropriate for what he's done, do you think?

Unfortunately, I agree with what you've posted above regarding what's probably going to happen to him and I'm afraid that he'll have it far, far too easy in prison or institution. A cushy number with lots of psychiatrists trying to find out about his childhood etc. If it were up to me I would like prison time for certain offences (this filth for example) to be really hard time. Hard labour and the years spent there as punishment not a chance for reform and to reintegrate into society. Some people are never going to be rehabilitated. That's a related but slightly different matter about what we're talking about here though and it also throws up other questions about dealing with prisoners and ultimately what they're in prison for (hence why I asked what your idea of justice is.)

So, hard though it may be to bear at times I do think it's a sacrifice worth making and - rightly or wrongly - yes, I do think the fact that we don't execute criminals makes us more civilised than a society that does.

[Stewart]

Well as I said, my idea of justice is that, for certain cases, terrible crimes, where guilt is not in doubt, Bradey, Huntley, the Yorkshire Ripper, etc, the death penalty is far better than a life in a reasonably cushy prison at tax payers expense.

I've never understood the mindset of people who think that you have human rights simply by being human and being alive. Human rights are for people who act decently.

Also the idea that we must not take revenge... why not? Its probably easier to say we must not take revenge if you are not murdered as a child in cold blood. Revenge as a punishment makes perfect sense.

[Amalie]

30 days in May - I remember that programme too. I thought the guy had admitted to being the "look out" - he was a teenager at the time and was in his thirties when the programme was made - that is just my recollection, I may be wrong.

Anyway, I was looking on the internet to see if I could check this when I came across this site - it gives the details of life on Death Row, statistics etc. Far from saving the taxpayer money, a death row prisoner can spend many years in jail before the execution takes place.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/deathrow/#Top

[Saracen]

.....

Anyway, I was looking on the internet to see if I could check this when I came across this site - it gives the details of life on Death Row, statistics etc. Far from saving the taxpayer money, a death row prisoner can spend many years in jail before the execution takes place.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/deathrow/#Top

That does NOT show what the cost implications of the DP are, though. It shows what the cost implications of the US judicial system and their DP are. But we don't have the US judicial system. See this post earlier in the thread.

[Amalie]

That does NOT show what the cost implications of the DP are, though. It shows what the cost implications of the US judicial system and their DP are. But we don't have the US judicial system. See this post earlier in the thread.

But if we had the death penalty here, would we not allow appeals which take time and in the meantime we would have to provide accommodation, food, prison staff etc. Keeping a prisoner imprisoned for several years would be expensive but, on the other hand, without the benefit of appeal we risk executing someone who may be innocent.

I do take your point though and don't imagine that we would ever have the equivalent of Death Row here but I thought the website gave an interesting view of the US judicial system if only to show that the death penalty does not deter others (i.e the register of prisoners and crimes committed). I don't think the death penalty worked here either, if someone is going to commit a crime such as murder, they probably do not think about the consequences.

Having said all that, reading about James Howson yesterday - the monster who, over a period of time, attacked his baby daughter before finally putting her over his knee and breaking her back - it does make you think that a lethal injection for this type of lowlife is not such a bad idea after all.