UK ID Cards - for or against?

[Rave]

[1]If you obey the law you have nothing to fear. In Nazi Germany if you obeyed the law you had nothing to fear.

Um....unless you were Jewish, Catholic, mentally handicapped, or in favour of democracy, in which case you had plenty to fear. Could you come up with a crapper example?

Anyway, the reasons why this is a massive waste of time and money have already been amply covered. If the government choose to send me an ID card I'll be annoyed at the waste of money, but I'll keep it. After all they sent me a National Insurance numbercard when I was 16, and I didn't complain about my freedom being infringed then. What I can say categorically is that I will NEVER pay for an ID card, and I can say even more categorically is that I will NEVER carry it about with me. I've lived in this country all my life, I've paid taxes all the time I've been working (and have never signed on), and I am entitled to wonder around this country carrying nothing except my clothes without fear of molestation. That is a freedom I will (literally) fight for if I have to. If a few more people die in terrorist attacks as a result, so be it.

Rich :¬)

[G4Z]

yeah, got to see very good points there and I amin the no camp as well.
Also I think its worth pointing out that they have ID cards in the USA and in spain and It didnt make a bit of difference when it came to terror attacks. IIRC the terrorists had pilots licenses and social security numbers, so I fail to see how having ID cards here is gonna help. would be a lot better if they took that cash and fed the starving around the world. far more likely to lower the chances of terrorism seeing as the main cause is the poverty and actual/percived opression we inflict, maybe we should try to change this perception?


also, £35 for an ID card, sorry blunket but you can just **** off pal!

[spikegifted]

I got a little bored at work today, so I wrote this... Please critique.

[Saracen]

Also I think its worth pointing out that they have ID cards in the USA .........

Since when?

Spain yes, but not the USA.

[Rave]

I picked up a copy of the Sun yesterday; I wouldn't normally wipe my **** with it you understand, but I wanted the free DVD. Anyway, they reckon that the ID cards will have either an iris scan or a 'facial features map' and that anyone refusing to get a card would be fined £2500.

Well, believe me, someone will be organising a campaign of mass resistance, me if necessary. I'd like to see them try to fine a million people £2500, and then imprison them when they refuse to pay. The stupid ****ers will have to give up on the idea then.

Rich :¬)

[DaBeeeenster]

Right. A few thoughts.

1. I agree, having done a fair bit of quite large government IT project work (including one >£100M project), that the thing will come in hugely over budget. Our taxes will spill into the cofferes of companies like LogicaCMG and Accenture at a rate of knots that I know I would find highly annoying.
2. It will probably not be 100% secure. OK, I know that's impossible unless the DB is not plugged into anything, but by its nature it has to be, so the point stands really. It will no doubt be FAIRLY secure, but given the number of people that will need to be able to access it, the scope for insider hacking is too large to ignore.
3. I dont understand why people are saying "I'm not paying for it". Erm. You HAVE to. Whether you get an individual invoice or you pay it in taxed, you will be paying for it in some form or another. I'm happy for it to be taken out of income tax, that way rich people pay more for it.

Right. Now. My opinion is not based on any of these points above lol. They are relevant, but they are unimportant for me. I will, like Rave, never carry an ID card. Ever. Purely from a moral and philosophical perspective. Personally I think there are two things that Brits can be extremely proud of. First is that most of our coppers do not need to carry guns. Second is that we do not have to carry ID cards.

It is a fundamental human right to be able to live freely in the knowledge that you cannot be harassed by the authorities without reason. I am also prepared to go to prison over this.

Anyone know of an "objectors" web site?

[DaBeeeenster]

Well, my position is almost identical to that of the LibDems...

http://www.libdems.org.uk/index.cfm/...e/article.6599

I'd go to this if I was back in Blighty...Bah...

http://www.privacyinternational.org/...nce/missingid/

MISTAKEN IDENTITY
A PUBLIC MEETING ON THE GOVERNMENT'S PROPOSED
NATIONAL IDENTITY CARD

Wednesday 19th May, 2004
13.30 - 17.00 hrs

The Old Theatre, London School of Economics
Houghton Street, London WC2A 2AE

Organised by Privacy International
in association with Liberty, Statewatch, Stand.org.uk
& the Foundation for Information Policy Research

Hosted by the Department of Information Systems
of the London School of Economics

The government has introduced draft legislation for a national identity card. The card system will cost at least £3 billion and is likely to become an essential part of life for everyone residing in the UK.

If the draft legislation is accepted by Parliament, everyone will be required to register for a card. Biometric scans of the face, fingers and eye will be taken. Personal details will be stored in a central database. A unique number will be issued that will become the basis for the matching of computer systems.

The proposed card may be required to access vital public services and to receive benefits. The government proposes to enforce the programme through numerous new criminal and civil offenses, including provision for unlimited financial penalty and up to ten years' imprisonment.

The implications for everyone in the UK are far-reaching.

Join us at this important meeting to hear from key figures in the fields of law, politics, security, technology and human rights. Decide for yourself whether this is a plan that should be supported.

The meeting is free of charge to members of the public.

Details of the event programme will appear here soon. In the meantime please let us know if you would like to attend by emailing meeting@stand.org.uk

Media enquiries should be directed to simon@privacy.org

[Rave]

w00t! I work about 100yds from the LSE. Better book the afternoon off now.

Personally I think there are two things that Brits can be extremely proud of. First is that most of our coppers do not need to carry guns. Second is that we do not have to carry ID cards.

It is a fundamental human right to be able to live freely in the knowledge that you cannot be harassed by the authorities without reason.

There's a third thing that makes me extremely proud to be a Briton: that millions of our citizens were prepared to risk their lives to fight for our rights and freedoms. I for one will not willingly give up the freedoms that so many gave their lives for.

Rich :¬)

[DaBeeeenster]

Cool beans. Damn, shame I cant go as we could have met up for a bevvie or 5 after the meeting.

Where do you work?

[Rave]

On Kingsway. I'm a civil servant embarassingly enough, but as my boss is a Lib Dem I don't think I'll need to be looking over my shoulder.

Edit: A bevvie sounds good, I hear the LSE bar is quite a nice place. Some other time maybe.

Rich :¬)

[turkster]

I dont get why so many of you seem to be against having ID cards as if its some kind of affront on your freedom

Most people carry some form of ID on them nearly all the time. I dont see it as a loss of freedom. After all we are who we are, and our right to live in any country is dependant on our identity. Seemingly a lot of you would like to walk around faceless and unidentifiable in a soup of freedom. An ID is only a declaration of who we are and as our whole lifes are built around that identity (unless you happen to be some kind of criminal or secret service agent ) it seems rather unlikely that any of us are going to achieve freedom from our present identities.

So whats the fear?

[Blub2k]

The argument that if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about does not wash, it is the principle of the nanny state combined with big brother. At what point will there be an embedded chip on the card following you whereever you go per satellite uplink so they know when you are having a poo and at what time?

[turkster]

The argument that if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about does not wash, it is the principle of the nanny state combined with big brother. At what point will there be an embedded chip on the card following you whereever you go per satellite uplink so they know when you are having a poo and at what time?

That would be cool all us Tech heads would have to work out a way to overcome it .

No seriously you have a point and i agree that should definatly not be the case. Saying that though i don't think there is any reason why the authorities should not have a means of identifying us in person. Afterall passports driving licenses etc all identify us and are government organised forms of ID. How do we know they don't have tracking chips etc in them?

I would be more worried about the state of a government/society where the authorities felt it necessary to do such a thing. I think we are moving in that direction recently with all the terrorist paranoia and undoubtedly we dont want to end up living in some kind of society like that in George Orwell's 1984.

Personally i think a simpler form of card id would be perfectly acceptable without all the chips etc. Something like a reasonably compact passport.

[KBeee]

RANT MODE ON - to all pro ID card people

I'm old enough to remember when the Eastern Bloc was crumbling.
One of the outrageous things that was discovered when Bulgaria or Hungary (I'm also old enough to forget which :-) ) was finally opened up, and Secret Police archives exposed, was, that the reason that it took so long to get a phone installed, was because every phone had to be bugged so the Authorities could evesdrop on anyone that had a telephone. The British Press was shocked, and used it to show the difference between the "free" and the "oppressed".
Nowadays in the UK, our own Government can listen in on any phone it chooses, and not only ISN'T outraged, but EXPECTS it. In fact it'd feel outraged if it COULDN'T listen in on your phonecalls/read your emails! You must be a Terrorist or Paedophile.
Privacy? Nothing to Hide - Nothing to Fear. Moronic. They must curse our more freedom-loving, privacy-loving forebears that made it so hard for them to open our snail-mail. Probably takes them all of 10 minutes to get a tame judge to allow them to do that.
I guess when we're all DNA'd at birth, and the ID chip is irreplacably implanted in us, and every second of our lives and actions can be watched and accounted for, you'll feel safer. And when you die I hope you get your wish and come back in your next life as a sheep.
Oh - and after spending £3,000,000,000 (let's face it - it's Government IT - it'll be £10,000,000,000, and still won't ferkin' work), the number of terrorist attacks, murders, illegal immigrants and drugs dealt etc. will be... exactly the same.
But they'll finally have controll over the plebs.

No offence intended to anyone

[DeludedGuy]

The only downside I see to this, is the cost of making all the ID cards possible. I could think of much better things to spend that amount of money on.

[turkster]

RANT MODE ON - to all pro ID card people

I'm old enough to remember when the Eastern Bloc was crumbling.
One of the outrageous things that was discovered when Bulgaria or Hungary (I'm also old enough to forget which :-) ) was finally opened up, and Secret Police archives exposed, was, that the reason that it took so long to get a phone installed, was because every phone had to be bugged so the Authorities could evesdrop on anyone that had a telephone. The British Press was shocked, and used it to show the difference between the "free" and the "oppressed".
Nowadays in the UK, our own Government can listen in on any phone it chooses, and not only ISN'T outraged, but EXPECTS it. In fact it'd feel outraged if it COULDN'T listen in on your phonecalls/read your emails! You must be a Terrorist or Paedophile.
Privacy? Nothing to Hide - Nothing to Fear. Moronic. They must curse our more freedom-loving, privacy-loving forebears that made it so hard for them to open our snail-mail. Probably takes them all of 10 minutes to get a tame judge to allow them to do that.
I guess when we're all DNA'd at birth, and the ID chip is irreplacably implanted in us, and every second of our lives and actions can be watched and accounted for, you'll feel safer. And when you die I hope you get your wish and come back in your next life as a sheep.
Oh - and after spending £3,000,000,000 (let's face it - it's Government IT - it'll be £10,000,000,000, and still won't ferkin' work), the number of terrorist attacks, murders, illegal immigrants and drugs dealt etc. will be... exactly the same.
But they'll finally have controll over the plebs.

No offence intended to anyone

I agree that the above is not a good state of affairs. Clearly modern governments are becoming more suspicious of their populations and I agree that this is a loss of freedom but the actual concept of identity has little to do with this.

ID cards themselves are not the problem and neither are the chips that are put in them but it is the suspected use that they may be put to that is the problem.

In the April edition of PCPro there was an article on tiny rice grain sized computer systems that could be scattered around like dust. These are capable of communicating with each other through a grid network and can track vehicles etc. As a suveillance device they are almost undetectable yet when these come on the market they could be anywhere. Yet how can you protect yourself from devices like these. For all you know the Gov could have a few of these scattered throughout your house at the moment.

It is not so much the practicalities of the matter that is the problem, it is more the political and social climate that leads to such loss of freedom.

We cannot hope to control the technology and practicalities that could be out into surviellance etc (such as the dust mite computers or the phone taps in eastern Bloc countries) and if the government wants to tap our phones or watch as having a bath then it will.