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Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Noticed quite a few threads recently about drug use. Normally relating to one specific drug or another though. Most normally spiralling away from the OP toward this issue. So let's get it all in one place for a proper argument debate.
I'm posing this as more of a moral question on the whole issue, not specific drugs.
If legislated in a manner similar to alcohol - Britain's favourite recreational drug. Do you believe other recreational substances should be legalised?
So I'm an adult, I'm in my own home, in full knowledge of the consequences of taking x/y recreational drug. Should I face up 5 years in prison and an unlimited fine(Class B penalties for possession) for taking it?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
I believe it should be put into a similar category as alcohol.. And be legalised.
Alcohol can kill, and can be very dangerous, why should drugs be any different?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
I can see no good reason to not have drugs controlled according to the amount of harm they can potentially do. Proper licensing and control of supply could make a massive difference to this country, reducing policing and court costs, generating tax income, potentially reducing medical costs from the harm done by impurities in drugs / improper use / mixing the wrong drugs / etc. I don't think all drugs should be available for recreational use: but having this "drug x is illegal, drug y is illegal unless it's prescribed by a doctor for medical reasons, drug z is legal because we forgot to include it in our schemas back in the '70s, and alcohol and tobacco are legal because lots of people use them and we're scared about the political backlash if we try to mess with that" system is patently ridiculous: without even getting started on the "this illegal drug is *more* illegal than that illegal drug" debate...
So yes, legal, but properly controlled, licensed and regulated.
Either that or we also need to ban alcohol and tobacco outright :mrgreen:
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
chuckskull
So I'm an adult, I'm in my own home, in full knowledge of the consequences of taking x/y recreational drug. Should I face up 5 years in prison and an unlimited fine(Class B penalties for possession) for taking it?
If you was in your own home how would someone know you were taking it to prosecute you anyway. The use of "recreational" in the title taints the objective of the question/poll IMO, it appears you've already pinned your views to the mast and so offers no room for discussion, really.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
chuckskull
Noticed quite a few threads recently about drug use. Normally relating to one specific drug or another though. Most normally spiralling away from the OP toward this issue. So let's get it all in one place for a proper argument debate.
I'm posing this as more of a moral question on the whole issue, not specific drugs.
If legislated in a manner similar to alcohol - Britain's favourite recreational drug. Do you believe other recreational substances should be legalised?
So I'm an adult, I'm in my own home, in full knowledge of the consequences of taking x/y recreational drug. Should I face up 5 years in prison and an unlimited fine(Class B penalties for possession) for taking it?
Yes.
But there needs to be better education on the subject.
Legalise
Regulate
Slap tax on
Sorted...
The problems start arising mainly when substance 'X' is mixed with god knows what.
If you can ensure that it is what it says it is (i.e. not back street shady of someone saying 'yeah it's legal' how the hell can you differentiate between white powder by looking at it?...), then i see no problem...
I've always liked how as soon as cannabis is mentioned, people throw in about causing mental health problems... Show me something that displays that...
Does it bollocks, all it does is highlight an existing ailment on the sufferer...
My problem with recreational drugs is purity...
For example, alcohol, is strictly regulated and tested, and when it is served to you, it is usually from a sealed source which leaves somebody accountable if something is wrong...
Back street Terry could put rat poison or whatever in your purchase and you would never know, and no-one would ever see him again...
So i say, keep things legal, but regulate them.
Alcohol is a prime example, very damaging in certain circumstances, but it is regulated to hell and there is alot of education about it...
Rule of thumb;
Powders are easily messed with and can easily be made lethal. (i.e. adding rat poison)
Leafy goodness is easily messed with but hard to make lethal. (i.e. adding random herbs)
Play it safe, stick with plant life...
The only problem we have is that 99% of the population is stupid...
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Funkstar
:lol: Reminds of that Bill Hicks joke "George Bush says 'we are losing the war on drugs'. Well you know what that implies? There's a war going on, and people on drugs are winning it! Well what does that tell you about drugs? Some smart, creative people on that side."
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Originally Posted by
matty-hodgson
I believe it should be put into a similar category as alcohol.. And be legalised.
Alcohol can kill, and can be very dangerous, why should drugs be any different?
That's the thing I think the country needs to get over first. Alcohol IS a drug. It's a substance you take for no other reason than to alter your mental state in a way your find pleasurable.
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
If you was in your own home how would someone know you were taking it to prosecute you anyway. The use of "recreational" in the title taints the objective of the question/poll IMO, it appears you've already pinned your views to the mast and so offers no room for discussion, really.
That was merely an example. By 'recreational' I mean drugs that have no/low chemical dependence problems, only minor health concerns, that are currently illegal. I make a distinction between such drugs and so called 'hard' drugs, that can cause near immediate chemical dependence and rapidly lead to serious health issues.
If you don't then, that's your opinion.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
chuckskull
That was merely an example. By 'recreational' I mean drugs that have no/low chemical dependence problems, only minor health concerns, that are currently illegal. I make a distinction between such drugs and so called 'hard' drugs, that can cause near immediate chemical dependence and rapidly lead to serious health issues.
If you don't then, that's your opinion.
This is the main problem that exists now and it will still be there if some are legalised. Its all well and good letting the Stoner's have there stuff legally but then what about those who like a bit of 'sniff', 'brown' and whatever else - should they be told they cant have there high, but Bob Hope can ?
The can of worms is to great for it to be opened, not to mention the last thing i want to be doing is walking round why everyone's zoned out and legally supported, this being the best case scenario, not if its being mixed with other stuff as TAKTAK mentiones.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Good post TAKTAK.
Pretty much sums up my feelings up the subject. Illegalising a substance opens the doorway for a criminal element to make a profit whilst selling potentially (and usually) unpure substances.
Legalising and regulating drugs means a safer experience for all, with a nice tax boost AND an entire new industry which would help out the unemployed. It would also save a lot of police time and effort.
In my mind, that the government seeks to control my state of mind is a complete infringement on my human rights.
Saying that, like TAKTAK says, education must be increased. Drugs education essentially works by trying to scare kids into not taking it.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
The can of worms is to great for it to be opened, not to mention the last thing i want to be doing is walking round why everyone's zoned out and legally supported, this being the best case scenario, not if its being mixed with other stuff as TAKTAK mentiones.
Do you not go outside on the weekends then?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
format
Do you not go outside on the weekends then?
You seem to be missing the point, and most possibly the major one. You state yourself do I not go out on the "weekends" - now imagine that everyday, not something I would want to experience by choice.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Are you insinuating that if certain substances were to made legal, everyone would just go around trashed, all the time? Really?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
You seem to be missing the point, and most possibly the major one. You state yourself do I not go out on the "weekends" - now imagine that everyday, not something I would want to experience by choice.
Right, because alcohol is legal everyone just gets absolutely pished every day of the week? There are people who abuse alcohol - getting drunk every day, and there are people who abuse drugs - getting high every day. Making them legal won't change that fact. I would much rather encounter someone who was stoned off cannabis, than someone who was fall-down drunk off buckfast.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
@Above I'm not saying they would be stoned or plastered everyday but when both are supported, arguably encouraged, I find it hard believe that drug/alcohol related incidents/accidents wouldn't increase.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
This is the main problem that exists now and it will still be there if some are legalised. Its all well and good letting the Stoner's have there stuff legally but then what about those who like a bit of 'sniff', 'brown' and whatever else - should they be told they cant have there high, but Bob Hope can ?
The can of worms is to great for it to be opened, not to mention the last thing i want to be doing is walking round why everyone's zoned out and legally supported, this being the best case scenario, not if its being mixed with other stuff as TAKTAK mentiones.
There has to be a line somewhere I don't disagree with that. In my mind that should be at the point something becomes so dangerous that you can reasonably argue that it's so dangerous it shouldn't be available at all. I believe the legalisation of recreational drugs would allow law enforcement to better deal with controlling those kinds of substances.
The argument that we shouldn't do something because it would be a long and complicated process(can of worms) at the expense of personal liberty is one that makes me rather angry and I'll leave that at that.
As I mentioned in my original post legislated in a manner similar to alcohol, which would ensure the purity of the drugs and if you're being a nuisance because of them, a friendly bobby will come take you back to the police station.
If you mean mixing more than one type of drug at a time, then that's a problem to be combated with proper drug education, as opposed to the current scaremongering. Currently there is no such education and most young people learn about what drugs not to combine when they or a friend ends up in A&E or a coffin. Which in my mind is not only tragic, but utterly shameful.
In regards to one of your more recent posts; Do you not believe proper, education and control would reduce these incident/accidents?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
chuckskull
There has to be a line somewhere I don't disagree with that. In my mind that should be at the point something becomes so dangerous that you can reasonably argue that it's so dangerous it shouldn't be available at all. I believe the legalisation of recreational drugs would allow law enforcement to better deal with controlling those kinds of substances.
The argument that we shouldn't do something because it would be a long and complicated process(can of worms) at the expense of personal liberty is one that makes me rather angry and I'll leave that at that.
My reply to this will probably give an indication of what I think of education as well, but here goes:
Would your go and take a cap/shot of bleach from under your kitchen cupboard, you know It's bad for you, so why do it ? does this mean Mr.Muscle should be outlawed? /synic
It depends what is meant 'dangerous' I view drug taking as an 'other-regarding' action, drugs and 'dangerous' mean to me that one of my mates getting stoned and doing something foolish to either me or themselves - of course, the foolish thing could be the taking of the drug itself and them having a bad 'trip' or it could be them running into a road or jumping into a river.
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Originally Posted by
chuckskull
As I mentioned in my original post legislated in a manner similar to alcohol, which would ensure the purity of the drugs and if you're being a nuisance because of them, a friendly bobby will come take you back to the police station.
If you mean mixing more than one type of drug at a time, then that's a problem to be combated with proper drug education, as opposed to the current scaremongering.
Aren't drugs usually mixed though, mostly with alcohol I would imagine.
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Originally Posted by
chuckskull
In regards to one of your more recent posts; Do you not believe proper, education and control would reduce these incident/accidents?
So which do you want, control (what do you mean exactly by control?) or liberty?
As I mentioned in the last drug thread, where else is there for us to go in the way of education. We educate and educate and the message doesn't get through, granted you may think the education is crap, non-effective or whatever, but when you do have people losing friends etc to drugs and yet there willing to still do drugs I take an objective view and basically say fudge 'em.
The problem isn't about education in this country, Its about responsibility, the lack of which seems to cause the most of the problems in this country - trying not to go off topic ofc.
All in all I don't know, but I find it very hard to believe legalising any more substances will benefit us as a society.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
chuckskull
I'm posing this as more of a moral question on the whole issue, not specific drugs.
As a moral question, there are two angles that springs to mind (I am sure there are more, but I don't feel like writing an essay).
1. The liberty to do whatever you want to your body as you see fit, or indeed, whatever you want so long as it caused no harm to others. It's my default stance on life, but it's on the assumption that adults -are- responsible enough to be trusted, and I have many times been proven wrong.
2. The moral question aspect of consuming those in the first place. And I am including alcohol and cigarettes to the mix. Those are legal, tolerated, and in some cases, encouraged. Yet personally, I think that alcohol is a great invention, just not for consumption, and the world may not have been a worse place if cigarettes were never invented (we'll never know). But they are here and given their high acceptance, they are here to stay, and asking whether they should be banned too is kinda pointless. You are about as likely to ban those widely accepted substances as you are to ban religion.
For me, 1 and 2 present a conflicting dilemma. Legalise it, and I think we'll be opening a valve that given time, we won't be able to shut if we wanted to (I think that there is as much chance of legalising all drugs as there is of banning cigarettes - I certainly would not want to spend my life campaigning for either). Is enlarging the market size of substances people regularly consume, and unfortunately sometime abuse a morally positive decision? *Shrug*
By the way, I didn't vote. This topic interest me about enough to make this one post, but I am honestly quite apathetic to it. If it was legal, I wouldn't be calling for it to be made illegal (unless we are actually better off than now than we would be if it would be legal - but I think that's anyone's guess). It's illegal, I wouldn't sign a petition for it to be legal. I probably mentioned in the other thread that I have marginally more interest in being able to legally firing bullets into a decommissioned vehicle in a controlled environment, but that's not to say that I care enough about to make to campaign about it. Life offers more recreational activities than I have time or money to indulge in, even after the removal those I can't.
Yes, I've pretty much repackaged what I said in the other thread. Then again, everyone's already gave their opinion, and I bet it's going to be about the same between the other thread and this one.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
My reply to this will probably give an indication of what I think of education as well, but here goes:
Would your go and take a cap/shot of bleach from under your kitchen cupboard, you know It's bad for you, so why do it ? does this mean Mr.Muscle should be outlawed? /synic
It depends what is meant 'dangerous' I view drug taking as an 'other-regarding' action, drugs and 'dangerous' mean to me that one of my mates getting stoned and doing something foolish to either me or themselves - of course, the foolish thing could be the taking of the drug itself and them having a bad 'trip' or it could be them running into a road or jumping into a river.
Bleach has no enjoyable side effects and if ingested is far more dangerous than anything that could be considered a recreational drug or even a hard drug. By dangerous I mean something that poses a direct and significant threat to your personal health.
Irresponsible drug use is indeed very dangerous. So is irresponsible car use and irresponsible power tool use if you really want to go down the route of tortured analogies. The reality is, just about everything you do in your day to day life is dangerous if you do it in an irresponsible manner. I could get myself or someone else killed quite easily if I acted irresponsibly when I went to get a paper tomorrow morning. If you are taking a drug you expect to alter your mental state that significantly you should take steps to ensure yours and everyone else's safety. I also think failing to do so, should be a crime. just as it is now with alcohol; drunk driving, drunk and disorderly and so on.
For example; responsible users of hallucinogens, the drug class most likely to lead to such scenarios, ensure there is someone sober, who understands the drug they are taking there to look after them or the much more commonplace designated driver.
As an interesting sidenote, I have seen drunk people run into the road and jump into a river personally. So should alcohol be banned, because those people were idiotic?
Not to mention many, very dangerous activities - that serve no functional use bar entertainment, just like recreational drugs - are perfectly legal on the understanding they are done in a responsible and safe manner. Rock climbing, motorsport, swimming with sharks etc.
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
Aren't drugs usually mixed though, mostly with alcohol I would imagine.
Yes they are, often with fatal results. Alcohol is a very bad thing to mix with most substances because it is a depressive, It is especially dangerous when combined with 'downers' for example. It is reported to be involved in nearly 50% of Multiple Drug Intake deaths.
Why? Because the average college kid doesn't know that. Hands up everyone who knew at 16 that mixing a couple of downers with 5 pints could stop your heart in minutes. I imagine very few people did. Our current system only encourages irresponsible use, by leaving the education of young people on the safe ways to take substances they want to try to hearsay, trial and error or the usually disreputable person they are buying from.
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
So which do you want, control (what do you mean exactly by control?) or liberty?
By control I mean an age restricted, regulated supply, just like nicotine and alcohol. Currently there is zero control over the supply of these substances.
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
As I mentioned in the last drug thread, where else is there for us to go in the way of education. We educate and educate and the message doesn't get through, granted you may think the education is crap, non-effective or whatever, but when you do have people losing friends etc to drugs and yet there willing to still do drugs I take an objective view and basically say fudge 'em.
The problem isn't about education in this country, Its about responsibility, the lack of which seems to cause the most of the problems in this country - trying not to go off topic ofc.
All in all I don't know, but I find it very hard to believe legalising any more substances will benefit us as a society.
Current drug education is nothing more than 'just say no' and 'reefer madness' with new graphics slapped over the top. Telling someone not to do something is not education, at worst it is often encouragement. Education is explaining how to do something safely and responsibly.
No other law is decided by how the irresponsible minority act. If it was we wouldn't be allowed to do much of anything by now.
As for responsibility, that is something else our young people need to be far better educated on. You aren't born responsible or irresponsible. it's something you're taught, just like any other skill, but as your rightly pointed out OT.
If your attitude is fudge(ahem) them, is it worth the billions of pounds a year spent fighting these drugs? or should we just sell them, slap VAT on it and spend that money making the country better for the rest of society? 17.5% of the UK drug trade is a LOT of money.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
chuckskull
Why? Because the average college kid doesn't know that. Hands up everyone who knew at 16 that mixing a couple of downers with 5 pints could stop your heart in minutes.
Is that the really the case? I think it's common sense that mixing substances may produce unexpected, and possibly undesirable effect. Even someone like myself who is not into those things would come to that conclusion just from reading the packaging of over the counter medication.
Could it not be just a case that lots of people are either stupid or wanting to push the envelop of what they can do? Tell kids they can't smoke, and they'll want to do it even though the packing clearly state 'SMOKING KILLS', well, it didn't kill Jimmy (yet), so it should be fine.. right? Ditto for alcohol. Tell people not to take drug, and some may just be more curious. Warn them that mixing substances is a really bad idea, and maybe that's exactly what they'll do.
Would it be unreasonable to say that at least some people are so addicted in finding new 'high' that they would disregard sensible advise?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Aye I wouldn't expect bleach to have enjoyable side-effects, but drugs also have an undesired side-effect, thats what I'm trying to get at.
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For example; responsible users of hallucinogens, the drug class most likely to lead to such scenarios, ensure there is someone sober, who understands the drug they are taking there to look after them or the much more commonplace designated driver.
^ I got trolled in the previous thread by suggesting something like this by a pro drug hexite.
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Not to mention many, very dangerous activities - that serve no functional use bar entertainment, just like recreational drugs - are perfectly legal on the understanding they are done in a responsible and safe manner. Rock climbing, motorsport, swimming with sharks etc.
Those that take part in those activities enter into a contract to be part of it, as i mentioned earlier taking drugs is both an self and other regarding action - why should I bare the brunt of some ones drug induced actions.
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By control I mean an age restricted, regulated supply, just like nicotine and alcohol. Currently there is zero control over the supply of these substances.
Like alcohol/cigs then, we all know how successful keeping it out of the hands of under 18's is ;)
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Education is explaining how to do something safely and responsibly.
So the next time some one throws a wobbler after taking X they've definitely got someone to blame. Swings and roundabouts.
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No other law is decided by how the irresponsible minority act. If it was we wouldn't be allowed to do much of anything by now.
You have the "tyranny of the majority" to thank for that.
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If your attitude is fudge(ahem) them, is it worth the billions of pounds a year spent fighting these drugs?
No, evidently not as its getting us nowhere.
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or should we just sell them, slap VAT on it and spend that money making the country better for the rest of society? 17.5% of the UK drug trade is a LOT of money.
I mentioned in the other thread I doubt the money made from drugs would be enough to cover the prospective fallout from drug fuelled incidents, this also creates another argument as well. If something is now legal surely it can be grew/boiled/fermented or whatever by individuals? - By by drug tax.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
Those that take part in those activities enter into a contract to be part of it, as i mentioned earlier taking drugs is both an self and other regarding action - why should I bare the brunt of some ones drug induced actions.
I don't expect to go out and get harassed by a bunch of chavs on the bus, but it happens. It's ridiculous to say that making drugs legal will suddenly lead to an increase in stupid and anti-social behaviour. I don't think legalising drugs will dramatically increase or decrease the users, it will just regulate it. I can't think of any recreational drug that will make you more aggressive than alcohol.
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
So the next time some one throws a wobbler after taking X they've definitely got someone to blame. Swings and roundabouts.
Do people do this with alcohol? No, if someone wakes up in the hospital after getting their stomach pumped they definitely don't go "hey, nobody told me that would happen, why wasn't I educated properly?" You don't seem to realise that alcohol = drug. Just as cannabis = drug. I don't understand these wild assumptions you are making.
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
I mentioned in the other thread I doubt the money made from drugs would be enough to cover the prospective fallout from drug fuelled incidents, this also creates another argument as well. If something is now legal surely it can be grew/boiled/fermented or whatever by individuals? - By by drug tax.
Again, do people do this with alcohol? No, because people want something they can trust. Do you think weed smokers would still go to some shady dealer to get their weed, if they could just go to the shops and get the exact amount of the exact strain at a regulated price? The whole point of legalising drugs is so that people no longer need to do this. Sure, people will still want to grow their own weed, like how people still brew their own alcohol.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
TooNice
Is that the really the case? I think it's common sense that mixing substances may produce unexpected, and possibly undesirable effect. Even someone like myself who is not into those things would come to that conclusion just from reading the packaging of over the counter medication.
Could it not be just a case that lots of people are either stupid or wanting to push the envelop of what they can do? Tell kids they can't smoke, and they'll want to do it even though the packing clearly state 'SMOKING KILLS', well, it didn't kill Jimmy (yet), so it should be fine.. right? Ditto for alcohol. Tell people not to take drug, and some may just be more curious. Warn them that mixing substances is a really bad idea, and maybe that's exactly what they'll do. Would it be unreasonable to say that at least some people are so addicted in finding new 'high' that they would disregard sensible advise?
Those numbers were drawn from a personal experience in college, 5 pints of stella, 2 benzo's and 2 paramedics cutting him out his clothes on the kitchen floor. Of course there could of been other factors involved, I'm not a doctor, but that's what happened.
Thankfully, he survived and we all learnt the scary way that alcohol amplifies the effects of other drugs. Something no-one bothered to tell us in the many drug talks, roadshows and pamplets we were given during highschool and college. No-one explained to us what a CNS depressant was, and why it was so dangerous to mix with other substances, like alcohol. He'd had more than 5 pints before with no problem and more than 2 bennies before with no problem, he saw no reason not to. I'm sure immaturity played more than a small part, but he was and still is a responsible and intelligent person, but that doesn't matter he wasn't psychic so if he wasn't taught something he couldn't know it. If he had known these things, he wouldn't have done it. He said so himself.
Yes there are stupid people out there, but what is the cure for stupidity? Education. You echoed my own sentiment there, if you tell young people not to do something it will often encourage them too. Frankly regardless of what you say, most are going to try it anyway, so in my mind the educational focus should not be on discouragement but on safety. The law enforcement focus should be on 'hard' drugs, the kinds that can kill you or cause severe chemical addiction after only a try or two.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
This whole recreational drugs use thing is crap imho, there are lots of things out there that can kill you that people do everyday, theres feck all news to report so every now and again stuff gets blown up out of proportion or brought into the public eye thats been going on for ages, then everyone jumps on the bandwagon and its the end of the world...
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Lots of things in this life that can kill you. Probably any item in the house / garden can kill you if used wrongly.
I say, those that want to take the 'Recreational' drugs, go ahead. Its a free world. Gorge yourself on the stuff if you want.
I feel sorry for the people who have to be around the 'drug takers' when they are off their heads. The innocent people who get sucked into mayhem. Much the same as when you get a group of drunks who can't control their behaviour. Its always the by-standers that get the hassle.
Maybe they should put a special dye in with the drugs that makes the person that has taken it glow bright pink!! That way any 'normal' person can stay way clear of the idiot!
Anyway, must have a sad life if one has to resort to Recreational drugs to have a good time!! Very sad.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Haiku32
Snip>>>
I'm referring to all recreational drugs here, alcohol included so quite plausible and hardly wild.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
For me, it's a simple argument.
Is the current system, in any sense of the word, working?
My answer would be no. Almost all of the local kids seem to be on cannabis at one time or another, and even at my old grammar school, where a lot of people seemed to do nothing other than schoolwork, there was still a fairly large contingent of illegal drug users.
So as things stand, what benefit is the law having? I struggle to see one.
I think there's all sorts of things that could go wrong, but I'm fairly positive that if the government were to legalise all drug-taking then they would come up with loads of ways to regulate and police it to make sure people could get help.
Having said that, public opinion is against drugs in my opinion. If there was a referendum on it tomorrow, I'm positive that it would be massively in favour of criminalisation. Any government that suggested it would probably be soundly beaten in the Commons, and ridiculed in the press... I doubt it could work.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
I mentioned in the other thread I doubt the money made from drugs would be enough to cover the prospective fallout from drug fuelled incidents
Then I'd suggest you do more research into the estimated prevalence of use, the cost of those drugs, and the estimated cost of social harm caused by their use. Alcohol has pretty much the highest social cost of any drug - relatively the social cost of use of e.g. cannabis and mild halucinogens is much lower. And quite apart from the increased tax revenue, you'd also have decreased policing costs associated with policing the current illegal trade in those drugs, which could be rediverted into dealing with any "fallout".
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Originally Posted by
Terbinator
this also creates another argument as well. If something is now legal surely it can be grew/boiled/fermented or whatever by individuals? - By by drug tax.
No. The fact that consuming a product is legal does not automatically make it legal for anyone to produce and supply that product - that's what control and licensing is all about. There's no reason it would be any different for other drugs than it is for alcohol - you're quite legally entitled to home brew as much beer and wine as you want for your own consumption, but how many people do it? Has it negated the government's tax revenue form alcohol? It would be up to the government to decide which drugs it was legal to grow / make at home for personal use, which would (ideally) be informed by the complexity of the process, the chemicals involved and the likely purity of the finished drug. I certainly don't see any situation in which it would be made legal to home-produce drugs for public supply.
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Originally Posted by
psu1
Anyway, must have a sad life if one has to resort to Recreational drugs to have a good time!! Very sad.
I don't believe anyone here said they "ha[ve] to resort to Recreational drugs to have a good time". Anyone who does have to would be termed an addict, and if I knew someone like that I'd strongly advise them to lay off and seek treatment. But, in the same way that plenty of people enjoy an occasional drink without being an alcohol, plenty of people also enjoy the occasional use of other drugs without being addicted.
There are plenty of other forms of legal addiction: gambling, computer games, all sorts, but this thread isn't about addiction. It's about whether a responsible adult should have the freedom to alter their state on consciousness with a wide range of substances, not just the one or two the government of the day approves of.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scaryjim
No. The fact that consuming a product is legal does not automatically make it legal for anyone to produce and supply that product - that's what control and licensing is all about. There's no reason it would be any different for other drugs than it is for alcohol - you're quite legally entitled to home brew as much beer and wine as you want for your own consumption, but how many people do it? Has it negated the government's tax revenue form alcohol? It would be up to the government to decide which drugs it was legal to grow / make at home for personal use, which would (ideally) be informed by the complexity of the process, the chemicals involved and the likely purity of the finished drug. I certainly don't see any situation in which it would be made legal to home-produce drugs for public supply.
And how would you know if someone was taking there own produce or a government approved substance - that was my reasoning behind the by by propsective tax, I think having a plant on your windowsill is bit different from using your bath to brew.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
Maybe they should put a special dye in with the drugs that makes the person that has taken it glow bright pink!! That way any 'normal' person can stay way clear of the idiot!
What about those out there that are using recreational drugs such as cannabis for medical reasons to aleviate pain, reduce nausea associated with treatments like chemotherapy, or those using it to manage digestive issues?
Surely your going to be tarring all of those with the same brush if you radical plans came into fruitition.
You can't look at this in a digital view with "naughty drug users" and one end and "squeaky clean non-users", the world isn't as easy to pigeon-hole like that. It's really like an analog style system with a wide range of people using it for a wide range of things.
Yes, there are going to be people using it to 'escaping' from their lives - same applies to Alcohol
Yes, there are going to be people that want it every day - same applies to alcohol
Yes, there are going to be people out at the weekend enjoying it - same applies to alcohol.
What's the difference here between the two?
The difference is the fact one has been classed as 'illegal' by a bunch of people who are not really in contact with the real world and who do not take advice from advisors because it is NOT what they want to hear, while the other is legal as it's been used and abused for so long.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scaryjim
I certainly don't see any situation in which it would be made legal to home-produce drugs for public supply.
Adding to that, I don't think it's likely to be a big issue.
Let's suppose that cannabis is legalised tomorrow, and Boots begin selling it. Now they buy in bulk, from farmers who grow absolutely tonnes of the stuff. Considering all of the economies of scale involved, price drops right down. So you can get cheap, safe (comparatively speaking) cannabis from the high street.
Or alternatively you can dedicate a room in your house to growing it yourself, buying lights to keep them warm enough, watering them regularly, buying the plants, so on so forth. Or you could let some bloke down the road do it, and then buy it off him. Except he's feeling the pinch from high street providers, so you never quite know if he's padding it out with junk.
There'll always be one or two who prefer to do things their own way, but they'll be few and far between. Just as there are now with tobacco and alcohol.
Cracking down on home producers is unlikely to come into it... there's a reason people go to the pub for their booze, rather than making it themselves in a bathtub and inviting everyone round for a pint.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Hard to say, there people who can do stuff, and carry on with their life functioning ok, there's also people that end up in a downward spiral. Just like with alcohol.
I guess it all depends on the people.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
I find it difficult to understand why someone would think that a harmless Business Consultant growing a few plants a year for occasional sharing with his wife while watching telly was worth arresting, fining and imprisoning. However that's what could happen to me if I didn't live abroad and grow my garden in a part of Spain where it's legal, provided I don't sell it.
It does me no harm, does my wife no harm, does Spain no harm and does the local sweetie manufacturers a world of good. We would even be allowed to get together as a cooperative and grow a supply for all of the members, provided that no money is paid for it.
I know this discussion isn't about types of drug, just the general principle, but the example above is near one end of a scale, with people injecting bleach into their eyeballs at the other.
Either the government has to listen to its own drugs advisors, instead of firing them for doing their job, and start to think about legalisation, or someone will try a legal challenge in the European courts. It is the thin end of the wedge you have to watch for, once cannabis grown for home use is legalised, sale to friends will not be far away, and then the question of why cannabis has favoured status comes in and the idiots we elected will need to re-think the whole question.
The way in is via places like Spain, Netherlands and Belgium where their liberal cannabis laws are a freedom. The idea is that freedom should be set to the maximum across the EU, so Frenchies can point at the Belgies and complain that the French government is oppressing them by criminalising a harmless activity that is legal in a neighbouring country. The Frogs then have to convince the court that cannabis use is infringing on the rights of others or legalise it.
Sooner or later these totally pointless prohibitions will be eased, but meantime, loads of us are criminals.
Did anyone see series three of ‘The Wire’? The makers contend that the ‘War on Drugs’ is actually a war on America’s underclass, as they basically are the street level members of the supply-side community easiest to arrest. This is the danger, that ordinary people become criminalised by the simple fact that their career is illegal, as opposed to actually criminal.
From a purely philosophical point of view, what is crime? A good dictionary definition is “An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.” i.e. a crime is something which is illegal. This sort of circular reasoning doesn't go unpunished in thinking circles. It's only acceptable in pub arguments and parliament. In Saudi Arabia having a crucifix on your wall where people looking in the window can see it is illegal. So possession of a crucifix is a crime, but it’s not a crime in Rome. So is it actually a bad thing?
There’s an argument that all laws that do not serve to protect the well-being of the population as a whole from the actions of a subset are themselves immoral. i.e. they are themselves an attack on the well-being of the population, and should thus be illegal.
There are exceptions, of course, I think the seat belt laws are a good thing, but these are a minor encumbrance for a major benefit.
The problem with all of my philoserfizin’ is that there are recreational drugs that are clearly not a good idea. Crystal meth and PCP are so destructive that they probably shouldn’t be sold legally, but there probably wouldn’t be much of a market for them if there were cheap dope. We’ll never know unless we try.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Terbinator
And how would you know if someone was taking there own produce or a government approved substance - that was my reasoning behind the by by propsective tax, I think having a plant on your windowsill is bit different from using your bath to brew.
You wouldn't need to know where someone got the drug from. If you were going to allow home growing of recreational drugs, you'd control and tax the seeds / seedlings, so you're still getting tax income. It doesn't matter whether someone's taking home-grown drugs / drinking home-brewed beer or they're buying it from a licensed supplier.
I don't see how you can possibly say growing a couple of plants of a legal intoxicating substance is different from brewing a large barrel of a different legal intoxicating substance. What's the difference? Growing cannabis successfully requires specialist equipment / lighting / etc. (in the same way that brewing beer successfully requires a certain amount of specialist equipment, hops, brewers yeast etc.) and you still need to acquire seeds or seedlings, so the government will still be able to control those. If growing viable cannabis was as easy as putting a pot on a windowsill and waiting, don't you think more people would do it, rather than buying off some random dealer?
Most recreational drugs are much more complex to produce than cannabis / magic mushrooms anyway, and aren't really practical for home production, but again it would be up to the government to legislate and enforce growing rules as it saw fit. I'm sure that the vast majority of potential users of those substances would rather buy over the counter than invest time and effort in growing their own - in much the same way as the vast majority of alcohol users prefer to buy their alcohol over the counter rather than invest time and effort in brewing their own.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scaryjim
Growing cannabis successfully requires specialist equipment / lighting / etc. (in the same way that brewing beer successfully requires a certain amount of specialist equipment, hops, brewers yeast etc.) and you still need to acquire seeds or seedlings, so the government will still be able to control those. If growing viable cannabis was as easy as putting a pot on a windowsill and waiting, don't you think more people would do it, rather than buying off some random dealer?
Not really. The reason we need specialist equipment to grow cannabis is that it's inadvisable to grow it in your back garden (or front garden). Plant a seed or two in April in a grow bag, keep it watered and free from pests and in the sun, and by September you will have a year's supply (if you planted one of the decent new varieties). The problem of keeping it out of sight, but still in light, is why we need grow tents and lights and drip watering.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
The biggest problem with legalising drugs is the sources of many of them aren't exactly savoury. If we just started importing say, cocaine, the same way as coffee, we'd be funding some pretty nasty and vicicious people who would jump at the extra money being offered and who wouldn't blink for a second at the thought of a little extra tax evasion.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lucio
The biggest problem with legalising drugs is the sources of many of them aren't exactly savoury. If we just started importing say, cocaine, the same way as coffee, we'd be funding some pretty nasty and vicicious people who would jump at the extra money being offered and who wouldn't blink for a second at the thought of a little extra tax evasion.
Cocaine is already legitimately imported anyway? If a country like Columbia could legitimately grow and export cocaine they'd be a lot better off. One of the mains points of legalisation is that it takes the market away from criminals.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Lucio, you missed the point. Because it's illegal, people in the trade are criminals and because its illegal the trade attracts criminals.
Legalise it and a lot of the profit suddenly disappears; it's no longer a monopoly, and the criminals aren't naturally gravitating to it. It would rapidly become a cash crop like flowers or tea. The market would equilibrate and farmers would displace the drug barons. It would no longer be a crime, just a potentially dangerous (under some circumstances) activity that needed regulation.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
i think it should be illegal. that and smoking
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brucelles
Lucio, you missed the point. Because it's illegal, people in the trade are criminals and because its illegal the trade attracts criminals.
Legalise it and a lot of the profit suddenly disappears; it's no longer a monopoly, and the criminals aren't naturally gravitating to it. It would rapidly become a cash crop like flowers or tea. The market would equilibrate and farmers would displace the drug barons. It would no longer be a crime, just a potentially dangerous (under some circumstances) activity that needed regulation.
Are you living on a different planet or have you been smoking the whacky backy!! lol
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Haven't read the replies, but I don't think so.
I think it should all be legal, people know the risks (or they should be made aware of them), it's then their choice to take it or not. Only problem with this is Tax, if it was legal the government would no doubt want a cut, prices would go up, crime would increase, vicous circle.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PeterStoba
Only problem with this is Tax, if it was legal the government would no doubt want a cut, prices would go up, crime would increase, vicous circle.
Not really - if it was legal and regulated the price would more likely come down compared to the black market street value, which actually reflects the risk of getting caught supplying, not the cost of obtaining the drugs in the first place. A legal supplier wouldn't face that risk, so would have no need to sell at any more than a reasonable mark up above production costs + whatever tax the government levy.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Can't see it becoming legal. Don't want it to become legal. Simples.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
Can't see it becoming legal. Don't want it to become legal. Simples.
Yeah, of course, that's all there is to it :rolleyes:
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
i dont think its something which is so white and black. I think with proper regulation some drugs should be allowed.
When you look at some of the 'legal highs' which are around now that kids are takin and the quite brutal side effects of them its seriously terrifying. Im no stranger to it all being a big fan of raves (illegal or not) but my understanding is a lot of the drugs i have taken were safer than the 'legal' stuff thats around now.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Absolutely
Friend of my gf's passed away last week which they think is MCAT related, it's worrying the belief that "its legal, its fine"
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Biscuit
i dont think its something which is so white and black. I think with proper regulation some drugs should be allowed.
When you look at some of the 'legal highs' which are around now that kids are takin and the quite brutal side effects of them its seriously terrifying. Im no stranger to it all being a big fan of raves (illegal or not) but my understanding is a lot of the drugs i have taken were safer than the 'legal' stuff thats around now.
What are the terrifying and brutal side effects?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Just because something gets legalised doesn't mean it is ok to use. That goes for all drugs, booze etc.
Why make this new drug legal? Why add it to the list of 'legal' drugs that our younsters are going to think is ok to use? That gives the wrong message to the youth of today. A legal drug doesn't make it a safe one.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
Just because something gets legalised doesn't mean it is ok to use. That goes for all drugs, booze etc.
Why make this new drug legal? Why add it to the list of 'legal' drugs that our younsters are going to think is ok to use? That gives the wrong message to the youth of today. A legal drug doesn't make it a safe one.
And criminalising them doesn't stop people using them.
Legalisation means that you can instate proper controls on the quality, purity and availability of drugs. And you can tax the hell out of them.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
format
What are the terrifying and brutal side effects?
Death is probably the most common. Occasionally people suffer severe permanant brain damage, but that's pretty rare, and unheard of with E and most 'known quantity' drugs.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
Are you living on a different planet or have you been smoking the whacky backy!! lol
An excellent response taking into account all the subtleties and points of the posters argument.
I would suggest looking at what happened with prohibition in the US, once legalised the criminal gangs lost their stranglehold, some went ligit mind, but there was a reduction in orginised crime.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
14 states in america have the right idea... albeit packaged for medical grounds, it is a legalised way of controlling cannabis... its working, aside from federal agents (federal law prohibits, whereas state law allows) breaking in and stealing confiscating the "evidence"...
when i was over there (LA), seemed to me like it was a pretty good way of doing things...
I loved that i had a choice of strains, for different highs and different experiences...
everywhere i went i smelt the pleasant aroma of cannabis and nobody batted an eyelid...
yet back in this country i have to see "a guy" who gives me little to no choice and i get varying "deals" at different times of the month sometimes the right amount, sometimes short and not very occassionally i get more than i bargained for...
legalisation would mean choices, and education, and finding strains that are right for right people...
I dont drink... i dont like the effect, but occassionally i do like to have a bit of a smoke and chill out...
lets face it when was the last time you saw a bunch of stoners be like "hey lets turn over that car"... hell, when was the last time you saw stoners say "hey lets get off the couch!"...
prohibition has failed, and it will continue to fail because where theres sunlight, cannabis will grow, and whilst it grows, people will smoke it...
cut the crap... legalise it... give us a bit more choice and i'll happily pay for the privlidge, even taxed...
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
Why make this new drug legal?
Erm - assuming you're talking about Mephedrone, it's only just been made illegal, and I'm not convinced anyone is talking about making that particular drug legal. But actually, the issue is more complicated than that - the drug needs testing properly, with long term trials and studies on the psychological and physiological effects of using it.
The problem is, our current system only allows "legal or illegal" - so it's kind of hard to get approval for the kind of testing that would determine whether / in what circumstances Mephedrone actually poses the significant health risk many are claiming. It also leads to the assumption that if something's legal it's OK to chug it as hard as you like - see "alcohol" for how successful that method of control is.
A much better system would be to introduce licensing for all drugs, and simply restrict the issue of licenses: so instead of having offences like "Provision of a Class B Drug", "Possession of a Class C Drug" etc. there'd be a general offence of supplying a controlled substance without a license. The general provision would be that any drug not specifically licensed couldn't be supplied, so there'd be no such thing as new legal highs - each drug would come into the system at the tightest level of control, and as more was known about it a decision could be taken as to whether it should be licensed for more general consumption. And if certain recreational drugs were freely available through licensed retailers, most people wouldn't feel the need to try to obtain drugs through other channels. It would also move the focus of policing into the supply of those drugs, not the possession, as possession of those drugs would be legal as long as they were obtained from a licensed supplier within the terms of that license. Of course, there could also be provision in law to prosecute knowingly obtaining substances from an unlicensed supplier, which would encourage even more people to obtain their recreational drugs from reputable licensed outlets, and (in addition to the tax revenues) the government would have a good indication of how many people were using what drugs, when and where - which is, I'm sure, what they'd like.
Now, please understand that I'm not posting this for your benefit, as I'm pretty sure you'll just come back with some highly reasoned comment like "Drug are bad, m'kay" (since this has pretty much been your only input into this debate over the last month or so that it's been going on), but for the benefit of those who actually want a reasoned debate over the drug control issue - because "legal" or "illegal" simply doesn't work...
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Biscuit
see finlays post
Quote:
Originally Posted by
finlay666
Absolutely
Friend of my gf's passed away last week which they think is MCAT related, it's worrying the belied that "its legal, its fine"
Pardon my scepticism but with all the FUD going around about MCAT right now I think I'll wait until there has been a single proven case (I'm talking toxicology reports etc) that MCAT has been the cause of death. Note that I don't mean where MCAT has exacerbated an existing condition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brucelles
Death is probably the most common. Occasionally people suffer severe permanant brain damage, but that's pretty rare, and unheard of with E and most 'known quantity' drugs.
How many people have suffered death or permanent brain damage directly because of MCAT?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
While there's still no conclusive proof that MCAT is directly responsible for any deaths, I think there's been sufficient mortality where MCAT has been implicated to start assuming that it has a negative effect on human physiology. It may well be that it exacerbates an existing condition, or that it increases toxicity of other substances and is only a danger in combination, but that's the kind of information that needed to be determined before a large number of people started taking the stuff.
The danger with MCAT is that we know virtually nothing about its physiological effects, but the fact that it was, for a while at least, legal gave it an air of respectability that will be hard to shake just by making it illegal. You ask how many people *have* suffered death or permanent brain damage directly because of MCAT - but the real question is how many people *should* suffer death or permanent brain damage - directly *or* indirectly because of MCAT - before we start studying and controlling the damn stuff. Frankly, if even one of those deaths is demonstrated to be indirectly caused by MCAT, that's one too many - and it's a situation caused largely by the illegality of other, better understood, potentially safer, recreational drugs...
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scaryjim
While there's still no conclusive proof that MCAT is directly responsible for any deaths, I think there's been sufficient mortality where MCAT has been implicated to start assuming that it has a negative effect on human physiology. It may well be that it exacerbates an existing condition, or that it increases toxicity of other substances and is only a danger in combination, but that's the kind of information that needed to be determined before a large number of people started taking the stuff.
The danger with MCAT is that we know virtually nothing about its physiological effects, but the fact that it was, for a while at least, legal gave it an air of respectability that will be hard to shake just by making it illegal. You ask how many people *have* suffered death or permanent brain damage directly because of MCAT - but the real question is how many people *should* suffer death or permanent brain damage - directly *or* indirectly because of MCAT - before we start studying and controlling the damn stuff. Frankly, if even one of those deaths is demonstrated to be indirectly caused by MCAT, that's one too many - and it's a situation caused largely by the illegality of other, better understood, potentially safer, recreational drugs...
Agreed completely - there should most definitely be intensive research into this drug. I'd much rather have all these kids taking MDMA over this, given the relative harmlessness of MDMA.
It just gets to me when people attribute severe side effects and death to MCAT when there is yet to be a single proven case of death or 'brain damage' from it. It may be that I will be shown to be in the wrong in the future, and that's fine. But for now, I wish people would base their opinions on fact rather than media FUD.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Salazaar
And criminalising them doesn't stop people using them.
Legalisation means that you can instate proper controls on the quality, purity and availability of drugs. And you can tax the hell out of them.
Of course! Just like Alcohol etc!! :rolleyes:
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
Of course! Just like Alcohol etc!! :rolleyes:
Better that than driving it underground where there are no controls on what is being sold or to whom and, no avenues to generate revenue for anyone other than criminals.
Can you name a single instance in history where prohibition has actually prevented the use of a substance which the general public wants to use?
If people want to take drugs then they will, the question is just of how you manage it.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
Of course! Just like Alcohol etc!! :rolleyes:
I assume this means that you think Alcohol should be prohibited as well, then?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
mmmm, alcohol, yum yum!! lol
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
I'm in favour of legalisation, licensing and taxing the bejesus out of it, ideally with the taxes going into helping people with issues out (drugs, social, etc)... Would probably have to introduce them legally at equivalent to street prices and may even have to keep cutting them with other things (known safe things in this case) to avoid heroin users / addicts from OD'ing... Same goes for prostitution, make it legal and control it.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
mmmm, alcohol, yum yum!! lol
I can't tell if you are a fantastic troll or just a simpleton.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
format
I can't tell if you are a fantastic troll or just a simpleton.
I lolled :D brilliant response sir, well done!
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
format
I can't tell if you are a fantastic troll or just a simpleton.
Well, we all know what you are. A drug user who tries to get everyone else to join the bandwagon!! lol
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
Well, we all know what you are. A drug user who tries to get everyone else to join the bandwagon!! lol
Who isn't?
At the end of the day show me one study that shows that cannabis is more dangerous than cotton wool... Neglecting carcinogens, seeing as though you get that with smoking anyway...
And don't forget, alcohol is a drug that has been legalised and is regulated and taxed to hell... Some people abuse it... Some people abuse razer blades, should we ban them?
Legalise the plants and regulate the hell out of them tax them to the ground and let people make informed descisions...
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
So legalising new drugs is sending a great message to the youth of today and the future? Where does it stop?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
Well, we all know what you are. A drug user who tries to get everyone else to join the bandwagon!! lol
Yeah, go shoot up some heroin, it's very morish! :cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
So legalising new drugs is sending a great message to the youth of today and the future? Where does it stop?
Here are some of the effects of MDMA - tell me, what is so bad about them? Especially when compared to alcohol.
Quote:
The most common effects reported by users include:[68]
A general and subjective alteration in consciousness
A strong sense of inner peace and self-acceptance
Diminished aggression, hostility, and jealousy
Diminished fear, anxiety, and insecurity
Extreme mood lift with accompanying euphoria
Feelings of empathy, compassion, and forgiveness towards others
Feelings of intimacy and even love for others
Improved self-confidence
The ability to discuss normally anxiety-provoking topics with marked ease
An intensification of perception, particularly tactile sensation or touch, as well as hearing and vision
Substantial enhancement of the appreciation for or quality of music
Mild psychedelia, consisting of mental imagery and auditory and visual distortions
As well as:
Stimulation, arousal, and hyperactivity (e.g., many users get an "uncontrollable urge to dance" while under the influence)
Increased energy and endurance
Increased alertness, awareness, and wakefulness
Increased desire, drive, and motivation
Cognitive and memory impairment
Hypersexuality and aphrodisiac effects
Analgesia or decreased pain sensitivity
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
format
Yeah, go shoot up some heroin, it's very morish! :cool:
Here are some of the effects of MDMA - tell me, what is so bad about them? Especially when compared to alcohol.
So, you are saying it is ok to legalise this drug for recreational use? What good will it do? What harm will it do in the future? Do you not care about the youth of today or tomorrow?
Why do we need yet another drug to stuff down the throats of anyone?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
New drugs are automatically legal because the system we currently have bans specific drugs. MCAT was never "legalised" - it was automatically legal because it wasn't on the controlled substances list, and it's only today that the ban on it comes into force (so it is now illegal, in fact).
However, many "traditional" recreational drugs (cannabis, LSD, magic mushrooms) are well established to have no more harmful side effects than alcohol and tobacco, and there is a perfectly reasonable debate to be had about whether it's right for alcohol and tobacco to be legal when those drugs are not. If you want to make snide but ultimately meaningless remarks without joining in the debate, that's your loss, frankly.
If you'd bothered reading any of my earlier posts, you'd know that my proposal would actually work better than the current system, because it would be illegal to supply any substance without a license, so new drugs would automatically be illegal to supply, as people wouldn't have a license for them. Substances would only be licensed for sale once their effects were well understood and people could be educated about their responsible use by licensed suppliers.
Wholesale legalisation of all substances that can have a recreational use would be a BAD THING (TM) IMNSHO, but there's no reason why we shouldn't legalise some currently banned substances, especially when all available scientific evidence points to them being significantly less harmful than both tobacco and alcohol...
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
So, you are saying it is ok to legalise this drug for recreational use? What good will it do? What harm will it do in the future? Do you not care about the youth of today or tomorrow?
Why do we need yet another drug to stuff down the throats of anyone?
Answer my question please - what is so undesirable about those side effects I listed?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
So legalising new drugs is sending a great message to the youth of today and the future? Where does it stop?
I mentioned nothing of "new drugs", i said plants :P
It is very hard to mess with plant life with very few plants actually being poisonous to the point of being fatal (well, there are a lot, but cross contamination would obviously be intended to cause harm, not just to reduce cost, due to the increased cost in sourcing dangerous plant life)
So i repeat, legalise plants, and regulate/tax the hell out of them...
Powders are a different matter, they're alot easier to mix and contaminate as they all look like a white powder... So i'd argue that legalising those is open to harmful abuse by people mixing other powders together to reduce cost/mixing in powders to get you addicted...
You can't do that with leafy goodness... All they can do is add some sage and basil, which just makes you smell like a spice rack...
In short, plant legalisation i'm all for (in it's true planty form)
Powders/Liquids are a vastly different kettle of fish...
Again, show me one study that highlights medical issues from the usage of cannabis...
I can give you loads for alcohol, yet that is legalised and regulated well, some people have adverse effects to everything, some people have adverse effects to nuts, lets ban those...
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TAKTAK
Powders are a different matter, they're alot easier to mix and contaminate as they all look like a white powder... So i'd argue that legalising those is open to harmful abuse by people mixing other powders together to reduce cost/mixing in powders to get you addicted...
.
Shouldn't that be a good reason to legalise and regulate? Way easier to buy pure drugs that way, and much safer.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
format
Answer my question please - what is so undesirable about those side effects I listed?
I'll let you know when i've tried some! lol
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
format
Shouldn't that be a good reason to legalise and regulate? Way easier to buy pure drugs that way, and much safer.
Blimey, you really are for drugs 100%!!!
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Legalise as long as:
1) Addicts don't try to stab me.
2) Users have to opt out of the NHS/any other publicly paid treatment/rehab.
3) Hand it out extra strong stuff cheaply and let natural selection prevail!
Should solve the overpopulation problem too :)
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
format
I can't tell if you are a fantastic troll or just a simpleton.
Its KoolPC (come on, you're telling me you didn't notice?!) - so he firmly fits into both camps.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Agent
Its KoolPC (come on, you're telling me you didn't notice?!) - so he firmly fits into both camps.
?............
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
format
Shouldn't that be a good reason to legalise and regulate? Way easier to buy pure drugs that way, and much safer.
Oh yes, but it is still wrought with many more pitfalls than plant life, by legalising plant life, you provide options for people, reducing the amount of people that aim for the powder alternative.
A powder is very hard to spot contamination (obviously that could be changed with an appropriate supply vessel which can be provided still sealed and was evident if opened, which would render the rest of this post redundant :))
With plants, it's hard to contaminate, therefore relatively safe.
With alcohol it is strictly controlled and inspected through the brewing process and is served in a sealed vessel, so you can see that the product has been safe guarded.
Personally i wouldn't ever want to take the risk with powder, there at that many white powders in the world that it's just not worth the risk if something did go wrong, especially so when the same experience could be had from a safer alternative.
What we have to keep in mind is that the majority of people are incapable of looking after them selves, alcohol is relatively safe, as are plants, powder is nowhere near as safe as it's alternatives.
In an ideal world where people weren't idiots, yes, make all of the powders available in a dispenser, that way the user can decide, but we will never get to that point as a civilisation, so in order to prevail as society, legalising and regulating powders is alot harder.
Plants you can grow yourself with little knowledge, alcohol you can brew yourself with little knowledge. Powder not so, so you don't have that option to ensure that you know exactly what goes in.
KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid
Oh and incase PSU1 is assuming that i regularly use recreational drugs, the only drug that i use is alcohol, and only in levels that i deem appropriate... However i'm not blinkered in thinking that everything is deadly, otherwise everything would be banned.
I have a scale for measuring levels of danger as do most people with a mind, it's called common sense, meaning that to me, powders are too hard to make safe to be feasible so i'm never going to touch powder... Plantlife isn't...
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
SiM
Legalise as long as:
1) Addicts don't try to stab me.
2) Users have to opt out of the NHS/any other publicly paid treatment/rehab.
3) Hand it out extra strong stuff cheaply and let natural selection prevail!
Should solve the overpopulation problem too :)
Addicts try to stab you as it is.
Should anyone who drinks alcohol or smokes cigarettes have to opt out of the NHS
Can't disagree with your 3rd point to be fair.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
As long as you can tell one leaf from another!!
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Agent
Its KoolPC (come on, you're telling me you didn't notice?!) - so he firmly fits into both camps.
I believe Maddox called him out a few pages back ( or maybe on another thread ) but yes, it is quite blatant.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
format
Pardon my scepticism but with all the FUD going around about MCAT right now I think I'll wait until there has been a single proven case (I'm talking toxicology reports etc) that MCAT has been the cause of death. Note that I don't mean where MCAT has exacerbated an existing condition.
I understand your scepticism, but please bear with me...
It is becoming quite an issue around Teeside given the number of high profile cases, not to mention what it could be cut with as with any illegal drug, and in an area like Teeside I doubt it's the purest MCAT available...
I firmly believe most drugs should be legal. Prohibition is the cause of the underworld scene, the taboo culture of not talking about usage, what it is cut with and the consumption from recreational users. There are certain drugs I feel should be illegal, mainly the addictive ones such as meth, heroin etc.
Legalisation leads to drugs being thoroughly researched and then controlled, standards of production and active control over substances, it's harder for a 16 year old to get cigarettes or alcohol than it is for them to gain access to illegal drugs. It also allows taxing in order to pay for the care required for the users and others.
If all drugs were reclassified I wouldn't be surprised if alcohol became class A, tobacco being class C and certain other narcotics being totally legalised simply due to the deaths related to the misuse as well as the cost to the state with the police, paramedics/ambulance staff (living in one of the stag capitals of Europe I have seen some pretty nasty things from people who cannot drink responsibly) and members of the public suffering due to the misuse of others
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
finlay666
it's harder for a 16 year old to get cigarettes or alcohol than it is for them to gain access to illegal drugs.
Rubbish. Have you been out in the night lately? A 16 year old can get hold of alcohol and drugs as easily as buying sweets. I know as i have worked in a young offenders institute and have worked with a wide rang of youngsters from all backgrounds.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
format
Answer my question please - what is so undesirable about those side effects I listed?
It would be useful in the future to reference the source the information (in this case Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Side_effects), to save others the time of of Googling themselves.
It seems that you have conveniently left out the section on less wonderful side effects, after effects and overdose (I know the argument, you can overdose on virtually anything - but to that I would say that you are far more likely to overdose on something that have those lovely subjective effects than most thing without). And there is more on this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects...the_human_body - again not exactly all positive.
I am going to ask one question. Do you think that all drugs should be legalised?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
You'll have to wait for Format to 'come down' before he can answer that question!! lol :mrgreen:
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
You'll have to wait for Format to 'come down' before he can answer that question!! lol :mrgreen:
Why?
Is he out climbing trees?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
TAKTAK
Why?
Is he out climbing trees?
lol..
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
Rubbish. Have you been out in the night lately? A 16 year old can get hold of alcohol and drugs as easily as buying sweets. I know as i have worked in a young offenders institute and have worked with a wide rang of youngsters from all backgrounds.
Well I know places in Newcastle are a LOT more strict on admittance, mainly because a lot of the clubs who were letting underage kids in were given a warning and now the bouncers are much keener on getting ID, despite my girlfriend and myself being over 21 we usually get asked for ID on a night out except where we personally know the bouncers and they know we are old enough
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
finlay666
I understand your scepticism, but please bear with me...
It is becoming quite an issue around Teeside given the number of high profile cases, not to mention what it could be cut with as with any illegal drug, and in an area like Teeside I doubt it's the purest MCAT available...
I firmly believe most drugs should be legal. Prohibition is the cause of the underworld scene, the taboo culture of not talking about usage, what it is cut with and the consumption from recreational users. There are certain drugs I feel should be illegal, mainly the addictive ones such as meth, heroin etc.
Legalisation leads to drugs being thoroughly researched and then controlled, standards of production and active control over substances, it's harder for a 16 year old to get cigarettes or alcohol than it is for them to gain access to illegal drugs. It also allows taxing in order to pay for the care required for the users and others.
If all drugs were reclassified I wouldn't be surprised if alcohol became class A, tobacco being class C and certain other narcotics being totally legalised simply due to the deaths related to the misuse as well as the cost to the state with the police, paramedics/ambulance staff (living in one of the stag capitals of Europe I have seen some pretty nasty things from people who cannot drink responsibly) and members of the public suffering due to the misuse of others
Good post, I agree with what you've said there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooNice
It would be useful in the future to reference the source the information (in this case Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Side_effects), to save others the time of of Googling themselves.
It seems that you have conveniently left out the section on less wonderful side effects, after effects and overdose (I know the argument, you can overdose on virtually anything - but to that I would say that you are far more likely to overdose on something that have those lovely subjective effects than most thing without). And there is more on this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects...the_human_body - again not exactly all positive.
I am going to ask one question. Do you think that
all drugs should be legalised?
All drugs should certainly be decriminalised. Look at what decriminalisation has done for Portugal. Legalisation for all drugs is a tricky one. I've probably made my position clear on MDMA/cannabis though.
Leaving out the 'less wonderful' side effects was indeed convenient, and not done for the benefit of some underhand tactic as you seem to imply. The negative effects of most illegal drugs are far less than that of tobacco and especially alcohol, and as such weren't relevant my argument at the time.
As for those of MDMA - most of those effects listed are either temporary inconvenient, rare, or only dangerous because of a pre-existing medical condition.
Like Prof Nutt said, taking MDMA is just as dangerous as riding a horse.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
psu1
Well, we all know what you are. A drug user who tries to get everyone else to join the bandwagon!! lol
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/f...62outcome4.gif
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Salazaar
m'kay :)
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
psu1
?............
Give it a rest Tony :rolleyes:
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
format
How many people have suffered death or permanent brain damage directly because of MCAT?
AFAIK none. I was being more general than that really. We know that E is pretty much harmless; those who have died while under the influence did so for other reasons. There were a lot of derivatives of E and K and going around though, that contained all sorts of rubbish from incomplete reaction of the substrates. These tended to cause side-effects that were minor in themselves, but fatal when combined with dehydration followed by a sudden influx of alcohol. There were deaths that were directly attributable to the drug, though if the users had sat at home watching TV they may have been OK.
Lots of E used to be sold that was adulterated with a potentially dangerous combination of ketamine, ephedrine and selegiline, that even David Nutt though should be treated as dangerous. People bought it as E, but suffered palpitations, cold sweating, rapid blood pressure drops and loss of muscle tension; all potentially fatal at a party where vigorous dancing and alcohol are the norm.
That's why I would like to see a rational government approach to recreational drug use. It's not going to happen any time soon, but one doesn't give up pushing for it, just because a load of anal-retentive, waste of time politicians fear losing votes.
By the way, I am growing my own two cannabis plants in the south of France (A Midnight Kush and a Blue Hash, both rare hybrids). I have permission from the police and the mayor of my village. I thought it was worth asking, and they said 'Oui!'. I will keep the crop to myself, of course, but I like that the police were willing to give me permission, provided the product never leaves my property. Sometimes the law-enforcers are more sensible than the Law makers.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
Brucelles
It's not going to happen any time soon
Actually I hope it might be pushed. We are already seeing a large number of alternatives to MCAT.
Maybe this time they will realise the problems of banning something which has such high consumer demand.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
Actually I hope it might be pushed. We are already seeing a large number of alternatives to MCAT.
Maybe this time they will realise the problems of banning something which has such high consumer demand.
I have these bursts of optimism too. I sometimes think that when politicians see the truth about (insert issue here) they will see the light and fight fr the right.
They almost never do though.
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brucelles
... I am growing my own two cannabis plants in the south of France ... the police were willing to give me permission, provided the product never leaves my property...
Any stipulations on how many people are allowed to come to your parties, though? ;)
But more seriously, it is good to hear that there are some sensible people in positions of power out there. I'd be interested to know how your crop turns out :)
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?
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Re: Should recreational drug use be illegal?