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Thread: Human rights or human wrongs?

  1. #33
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    Re: Human rights or human wrongs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salazaar View Post
    they've still got a right not to be imprisoned without charge, tortured or killed.
    However we are not doing that, we are not forcing them to stop in a cell, they would be there by their own choice, they can leave at any time they like, just not inside this country, its there problem to find somewhere to go. The cell just happens to be the only location in the UK we allow them to visit.
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    hexus.zombeh! format's Avatar
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    Re: Human rights or human wrongs?

    Quote Originally Posted by oolon View Post
    However we are not doing that, we are not forcing them to stop in a cell, they would be there by their own choice, they can leave at any time they like, just not inside this country, its there problem to find somewhere to go. The cell just happens to be the only location in the UK we allow them to visit.

    Do you propose what is effectively a seperate justice system for non UK citizens then?
    Imprisonment without charge?
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    Re: Human rights or human wrongs?

    Quote Originally Posted by format View Post
    Do you propose what is effectively a seperate justice system for non UK citizens then?
    Imprisonment without charge?
    No, its what to do with people who refuse to the country who we do not with to be here (and are probably a risk to the citizens). They have not right to remain here. Why are do you consider them imprisoned? If you are imprisoned you are not free to leave, they are free to leave. Just not free to roam around the UK.
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    Re: Human rights or human wrongs?

    Quote Originally Posted by oolon View Post
    No, its what to do with people who refuse to the country who we do not with to be here (and are probably a risk to the citizens). They have not right to remain here. Why are do you consider them imprisoned? If you are imprisoned you are not free to leave, they are free to leave. Just not free to roam around the UK.
    I'm not sure you've thought this through.
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    Re: Human rights or human wrongs?

    Quote Originally Posted by format View Post
    I'm not sure you've thought this through.
    Explain... What have I not considered?

    BTW we regularly put illegal aliens in detainment camps before returning them to their countries, if we withdraw this person's visa they would be guilty of stopping with a visa, is that guilty enough? I feel perhaps that they think life here is easiler than back home which is why this person wishes to stay, so I feel we should make it uninteresting for them here.
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    Re: Human rights or human wrongs?

    In Britain we live under whats known as 'the rule of law' a fundamental tenet of this is that you are 'innocent until proven guilty' this rule applie to everyone whether they are UK nationals overseas visitors or space aliens.If we start to punish people for unproven crimes then we lose something of our democratic national identity...........No thanks we're British and we play by the rules .

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    Re: Human rights or human wrongs?

    Doesn't mean the rules are right though, ethically/morally.
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    Re: Human rights or human wrongs?

    Actually I think that both ethically and and moraly it is right not to be punished for something until you have been proved to have done it.Would you like to live in a world where you could be arrested and punished for something without proof ?

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    Re: Human rights or human wrongs?

    Quote Originally Posted by tom170478 View Post
    Actually I think that both ethically and and moraly it is right not to be punished for something until you have been proved to have done it.Would you like to live in a world where you could be arrested and punished for something without proof ?
    No, I wouldn't, but you have to consider two opposing sets of rights.

    On the one hand, the rights of a foreign national. On the other hand, the rights of UK citizens.

    The primary duty of the British government is to protect the citizens of Britain. No foreign citizen has an automatic right be in the UK, They have to apply for it, and qualify. It is for the UK government to determine the criteria that qualify them, and to determine the criteria that disqualify them.

    If the UK government determine that a foreign citizen is a threat to the UK, then their duty is to protect UK citizens from that threat, and the simplest way to do that is to require the person they believe to be a "threat" to simply leave the country.

    Foreign citizens here in the UK have, or should have, three options :-

    - apply for a visa. It's up to the UK to grant it or not, and it is not a right to get one
    - apply for asylum. If the process is followed and asylum ultimately denied, then that route is closed.
    - leave.

    So .... if you have foreign nationals here who have either been denied a visa or had one cancelled, and who have had asylum claims rejected, then if that individual is believed to represent a threat, all they have to do is go home. But if they won't, then they are here without legal permission, and detention is not only right to be considered an option, but absolutely should be used for those considered a threat. Anything else puts the right of that illegal foreigner over and above the rights of British citizens to be protected, at home, from foreign bombers, or those that are believed to be so.

    This is not about rule of law, or "innocent until proven guilty". These individual clearly are guilty - they are guilty of being here illegally, is visas have been refused or cancelled, and asylum denied. That they are not guilty, or not yet guilty, or terrorism is not the point. We should not have to put up with them being here until they blow people up, if indeed that is their intent. We should simply be able to say they are not welcome here, so they can leave to be detained. After all, all they have to do to avoid detention is leave. If they are locked up, they can get out any time they wish ... by going home.

    What this is actually about is not rule of law, but two different pieces of law saying two different things. It's about Immigration law saying "you must leave" and the HRA saying "but we can't force you". Thus, the HRA is being used to put British citizens at risk of serious violence.

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    Re: Human rights or human wrongs?

    A few years ago hijacked plane arrived in Stansted - but the hijackets were allowed asalm as it was 'too dangerous' to send them home... WRONG WRONG WRONG

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