burka ban in UK 1 step closer

[Zadock]

Wow, looks like this is hitting some raw nerves.

This is a very tricky situation but I don't think a blanket ban is necessary just some carefully considered laws/security precautions for example say a muslim lady in a burkha went into a bank to carry out something routine? perhaps a room to the side where she must reveal her face to confirm her identity? However, this would only work if there was cooperation with the muslim community.

I think thats the key, rather than bringing in a law/ban that just upsets a lot of muslims why not carefully negoiate with them or more appropriately a collection of imams. Muslims communities take all their direction from their imam much more so than christians do from a vicar/reverand almost to the point where if their imam says its "ok" its ok. So if you can get them to agree that a flash of the face under controlled coniditions in a public place is ok could solve a few problems.

I dare say that the more of an issue made of burkhas the more muslim women will wear them, esp the younger ones!

(I am a total leftie liberal, I know... I am prepared for the abuse )

[j1979]

yes we are a tolerant county, look where it got us!

home-grown terrorists cells that denounce the west, promote medieval thinking, while sending emails on the blackberry in MacDonalds.

[Mossy]

Nice. I daresay my brother's fiancee's aunt, who is currently sporting a headscarf because she's lost her hair through chemotherapy, might find it upsetting to be refused service because people disagreed with her choice of headwear- she's got enough on her plate dealing with a life-threatening illness while looking after two kids of 8 and 5. But hey- she's different, so screw her.

Since when has a head scarf covered a whole face and obstructed someones identity invaid comment tbh and one imo to incite a reaction from Saracen. I think we all have known someone close who has suffered from Cancer and I think its quite out of order to use it in no relation to this discussion.

Curtail freedom of choice whos choice is it to wear the burka is the question you should as.

[chuckskull]

On a constructive note. It's not a religious requirement. It's a sexist 'tradition'. Just like Female Genital Mutilation and a variety of other horrible things perpetrated by backward cowards using Allah as an excuse to act like barbarians.

Even if it were written in the Quar'an. Tough. I don't care what your invisible friend in the sky says, welcome to Britain, where everyone is equal, like it or not.

[nichomach]

yes we are a tolerant county, look where it got us!

home-grown terrorists cells that denounce the west, promote medieval thinking, while sending emails on the blackberry in MacDonalds.

You don't have to be a Muslim to be a terrorist , and we were perfectly capable of producing violent thugs before most people knew what a Muslim was; further, you might want to consider what provoked a lot of them in the first place or provided a means for others to do so. They're responsible for their actions, but those actions don't exist in a vacuum; do you think banning women from wearing the various forms of the veil will make people susceptible to radicalisation more or less radical?

[usxhe190]

Don't really like the ninja wear. I mean I can't even see the person.

However, having said that, I think England already has a good system (i.e. take the thing off (like other things that cover the face) for security situations). As English people, we really shouldn't listen to the French. They are like bloody drama queens.

[j1979]

You don't have to be a Muslim to be a terrorist , and we were perfectly capable of producing violent thugs before most people knew what a Muslim was; further, you might want to consider what provoked a lot of them in the first place or provided a means for others to do so. They're responsible for their actions, but those actions don't exist in a vacuum; do you think banning women from wearing the various forms of the veil will make people susceptible to radicalisation more or less radical?

You don't understand the point, i suggest if you want to wear a veil or you want your wife to wear a veil. if you embrace medieval values, then please leave here and live your life without western influence. Give up your car, computer, the internet mobile phone and other evil western inventions. Go back to treating women as slaves, work the land, raise lots of children and don't progress. Never reach the enlightenment age, never question religion because God will provide.

no you're right, not all Muslims are terrorists. the last confirmed IRA or Real IRA attack on the mainland uk will be 9 years ago on August the 3rd.

i know what provoked them. Their Muslim bothers were killed by westerners or other Muslim brothers and they want to blame someone, because they are one, and a Muslim life is worth more than a non Muslim. 100's of Christians are killed on a monthly basis in Africa, ethnicity cleansed. But do you suggest it would be justifiable to suicide bomb, innocent civilians in revenge? i don't get your point? because the Iraq war may have been illegal we are fair game?

the vast majority of deaths in Iraq are Muslims killing Muslims.

[nichomach]

No, I understand your point very well, aside from your third paragraph which is an only marginally literate straw man at best; what part of "They are responsible for their actions" was unclear? Your point appears to be "Live your life according to a norm which I espouse. Don't believe anything or do anything that I dislike or disagree with. Don't dress any differently from me. Don't pray differently or better yet at all. If you don't like the way I think you should live, then GTFO." Seems perfectly clear (once stripped of all the pseudo-liberationist waddle).

[j1979]

No, I understand your point very well, aside from your third paragraph which is an only marginally literate straw man at best; what part of "They are responsible for their actions" was unclear? Your point appears to be "Live your life according to a norm which I espouse. Don't believe anything or do anything that I dislike or disagree with. Don't dress any differently from me. Don't pray differently or better yet at all. If you don't like the way I think you should live, then GTFO." Seems perfectly clear (once stripped of all the pseudo-liberationist waddle).

Ok mate, let right wing Islam rise. don't say we didn't warn you.

[MD]

ok ok enough already.

I want people to stop taking swipes at each others comments and being so aggresive - please lets leave out the 'he punched me first' comments and constructively talk about this.

If that cannot happen then Im gonna get out the switch made in a place called delete.

Merky Buckets.

M

[TheAnimus]

I'll take the chance, until they you know, incite any kind of hatred or violence.

But anyway, we must do something about these Burberry cap, and that rock and or roll music.

[j1979]

ok ok enough already.

I want people to stop taking swipes at each others comments and being so aggresive - please lets leave out the 'he punched me first' comments and constructively talk about this.

If that cannot happen then Im gonna get out the switch made in a place called delete.

Merky Buckets.

M

Ok here is constructive. Its about assimilation and the consequences of not achieving it in a population. The Burka makes assimilation impossible.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...or-679977.html


God asked me to pass this photo on from Emmeline Pankhurst.

[nichomach]

The link has nothing to do with Islamic dress, it has to do with the establishment of an Islamic school; as the article points out, there are schools that cater for Christians, Jews, Sikhs, why shouldn't Islam be accomodated also, especially in light of the signal failure of the local authority with regard to the education of ethnic minorities.

I'm sure that Emmeline Pankhurst would appreciate your drawing to our attention this fine example of women freely expressing their political and spiritual concerns without being hauled away to prison, forcefed with rubber hoses while strapped down to iron bedframes, committed to mental institutions or other similar practices that our enlightened and modern society adopted in the Twentieth Century. Bravo, sir!

[TooNice]

Re:headscarves: Well, that one isn't too hard to get around, we can simply have medical exemption certificates. Still doesn't resolve the is issue of wearing Halloween masks or Scientology protests though.

Even if it were written in the Quar'an. Tough. I don't care what your invisible friend in the sky says, welcome to Britain, where everyone is equal, like it or not.

Indeed, welcome to Britain where we generally have the choice regarding what we want to wear, and restrictions are an exceptions rather than the rule. I'd like to keep it that way.

If there is a problem at home (e.g. abusive husband), do any of you honestly think that banning the veil in public is going to make any difference? It's probably the least of those women' worry. That's like putting a band-aid over rotting skin. It's going to do sod all to help those who need help, while taking away the freedom from those who choose to wear what they do. You are going to have to do helluvalot of convincing to convince anyone that a ban on something they are used (and sometime, not even that) is in the best interest of society. Better make sure it is worth it. [Again, to clarify I do not believe exemption on religious ground in places where it is necessary to show one's face, but nor do I believe in banning on religious ground where other forms of face covers are normally allowed]

[j1979]

The link has nothing to do with Islamic dress, it has to do with the establishment of an Islamic school; as the article points out, there are schools that cater for Christians, Jews, Sikhs, why shouldn't Islam be accomodated also, especially in light of the signal failure of the local authority with regard to the education of ethnic minorities.

I'm sure that Emmeline Pankhurst would appreciate your drawing to our attention this fine example of women freely expressing their political and spiritual concerns without being hauled away to prison, forcefed with rubber hoses while strapped down to iron bedframes, committed to mental institutions or other similar practices that our enlightened and modern society adopted in the Twentieth Century. Bravo, sir!

i never said the link had anything to do with Islamic dress. it was a link to show how we are fast becoming divided, and the Burka goes some way to increasing the divide.

The Face veil has little to do with Islamic dress anyway! Seen as Islamic culture has existed for many years before the face veil was adopted. Did the prophet Mohammed's words change?

The Burka was fairly uncommon until recently. And here are 3 reasons it should be banned outright.

It causes division, stops the population having a common identity.

Is detrimental to the physical health of the person wearing it. Rickets due to major vitamin D deficiency are common, i can remember the last time i saw an old woman in full Islamic dress (with or without the veil) walk straight. They all have bowed legs to some degree.

i causes security problems. No doubt increasing the cost of services to the public

[chuckskull]

Indeed, welcome to Britain where we generally have the choice regarding what we want to wear, and restrictions are an exceptions rather than the rule. I'd like to keep it that way.

If there is a problem at home (e.g. abusive husband), do any of you honestly think that banning the veil in public is going to make any difference? It's probably the least of those women' worry. That's like putting a band-aid over rotting skin. It's going to do sod all to help those who need help, while taking away the freedom from those who choose to wear what they do. You are going to have to do helluvalot of convincing to convince anyone that a ban on something they are used (and sometime, not even that) is in the best interest of society. Better make sure it is worth it. [Again, to clarify I do not believe exemption on religious ground in places where it is necessary to show one's face, but nor do I believe in banning on religious ground where other forms of face covers are normally allowed]

The burka is a symptom of the extreme discrimination, against women present in certain sections of the Muslim community, a section which sees women as, not only lesser than men, but a source of corruption and evil. Punishes women(severely, often fatally) for among other things such as being raped or not wanting to be a Muslim any-more, for not wearing it and indoctrinates many to a point where they believe they do not have the right to be educated or speak freely and look forward to their own brutal mutilation, which is usually done with no anaesthetic, with tools sometimes as primitive as barbed wire and broken glass.

A symptom that I at no point said should be banned. You cannot fight extremism with brute force, certainly not directed against the symptoms. You fight it with education and not in single faith schools, they only fuel prejudices between religions IMHO. Extremism relies on convincing people that different is wrong, that different is evil, that different is not quite as human as you, and if you shelter children almost totally from different until their 16-18, it becomes far easier to convince an impressionable young mind of these horrible, poisonous lies.

As for requiring it to be removed in certain places. Turkey, Tunisia, and Tajikistan(all Muslim countries), require they be removed in many public buildings, such as unis, schools and government buildings and have done for over 20 years.