so... should faith schools exist?

[kalniel]

Bit silly trying to pointscore in this thread about things like that - I acknowledge the church's good work in education and social support especially in 19th century Britain but the church has done plenty to hurt intellectual progress over the centuries too. I guess that's a discussion for another thread though.

This was a specific point related to the foundation of schools and the reasons for that, so relevant to the topic and nothing about point-scoring (what is this, some kind of judged debate or something? Sorry, don't care for that kind of thing.)

The church does good things, no doubt about that, I also think they do bad things & hinder the progress of humanity with their backwards thinking on some subjects. This shouldn't be forced onto kids.

Have you got some examples? CofE faith schools teach darwinian evolution, they are pro equality for women, sexual orientation and gender-disphoric etc.

[usxhe190]

I'm not Catholic but you want to get into a Catholic school but you want them not to be Catholic?

[Rob_B]

I'm not Catholic but you want to get into a Catholic school but you want them not to be Catholic?

No, I'd want my child to go to the best school but not have them taught 'woo'

Have you got some examples? CofE faith schools teach darwinian evolution, they are pro equality for women, sexual orientation and gender-disphoric etc.

I didn't say the schools, I said the church, meaning most/all religions, guess I should have been clearer.
Backwards stuff like 'the man in the sky' - I'd already said they do good things, I didn't say everything they did was bad but come on, there is a lot of pap spouted by all religions.

[Bugbait]

As an atheist and someone who occasionally mocks religious people in person, I actually have nothing against faith schools. If you want to narrow your teachings then so be it. Strictly religious environments usually stem from the home, so if the parents want to teach faith it will happen one way or another, be it as school and/or home.

My objection in relation to faith schools is state funding for schools that do not have a balanced faith/creationism/science curriculum.

[usxhe190]

No, I'd want my child to go to the best school but not have them taught 'woo'

But it was founded on the based of the Catholic foundation. If they weren't allowed to be founded on that, it would have never existed?

Maybe a bad example, it's like a really good all girls school (e.g. CLC) and I had a son who couldn't go there because of the wrong sex. It would have never existed as a boys school as it was founded as a girls school...

[Rob_B]

But it does exist, probably founded in a time when people didn't know better and is funded by the state (in this example) however it teaches nonsense, regardless of the curriculum I am quite confident in saying that evolution would take a back seat compared to the church's views on how we came to be here.

Maybe I've changed my mind on the poll, they should be allowed but NOT state funded in any way. If you want to send your kid to a school that teaches your own brand of beliefs then pay for it yourself, free up funding for real education about the world we live in. We're too advanced for this sort of thing, shame the human race seems to need to cling onto these sort of beliefs in higher beings to get through life.

[kalniel]

however it teaches nonsense, regardless of the curriculum I am quite confident in saying that evolution would take a back seat compared to the church's views on how we came to be here.

And the church's view is generally that evolution is part of how we came to be here. So I don't see why you say evolution would take a back seat. It sounds like you're lacking in understanding of what you think churches believe, so it's a bit odd to be claiming things for them which aren't true.

We're too advanced for this sort of thing, shame the human race seems to need to cling onto these sort of beliefs in higher beings to get through life.

So in fact your objection isn't that you worry they might be teaching science badly, it's that you think no-one should be able to express their religious views if they don't agree with your own? I think that's narrow minded, personally, and from the views expressed I guess we need more religious education to correct misunderstandings, rather than less.

[Rob_B]

Well from my anecdotal experience people still believe in creation. No I don't know what they teach, if evolution (and I mean properly teach, not just pay it lip service) then great. The beliefs of the religion affect their teaching, if those beliefs are wrong then yes the subject is being taught badly. How many religions are there? Are they all right? It seems obvious that the majority of teachings (including aetheist/etc) have to be wrong, I want the reality, if that is that XX religion is right then wahey, sign me up, but give me proof first, without proof then we should go with the body of evidence we have for all 'things' until proved otherwise.

With due respect you're just making stuff up in that last paragraph. I (personally..) think it is pretty safe to say there is little evidence for any higher being so, on that basis, I believe religion is bunkum until proved otherwise or at least there is more evidence of it than any other explanation.

I said I believe humans are too advanced to still cling to the 'comfort blanket' of religion to make sense of the world. Nothing more, nothing less so please don't put words into my mouth. This isn't a comment on freedom of expression, I respect what people think but if it's factually incorrect then why shouldn't it be questioned?

I knew I shouldn't have bothered posting in this thread, it's far too touchy a subject for lots of people from all sides.

[BobF64]

I think Dawkins is the worst person you could watch on the subject - he is so anti-religion that he will be picking up only the things in favour of his argument and possible taking other things out of context or that aren't representative.

And just how is that different to the way religious people do the exact same for their own benefit?

[Steve]

Religious education is important, and in my opinion people should learn about as many religions as possible. I know I remain ignorant too many beliefs and practices because our R.E. at school could only scratch the surface.

As for faith schools, I fear science takes a back seat when it doesn't agree with religious teaching, but it would be a bit bullish of me to say that's always the case as I know it isn't.

However, as has been said, children are impressionable, so a faith school can have a big influence on the beliefs of a child, whereas in an ideal world a non-faith school would give them a load of information and little in the way of persuasion other than social influences (friends, family and so on).

So I'd say faith schools shouldn't get state funding, but I don't think I could say they shouldn't exist at all.

[usxhe190]

And just how is that different to the way religious people do the exact same for their own benefit?

There isn't. Some religious people are tail-end event situations as well.

[usxhe190]

I knew I shouldn't have bothered posting in this thread, it's far too touchy a subject for lots of people from all sides.

Mate, I don't think anyone is attacking you. Hope I am not...

But it does exist, probably founded in a time when people didn't know better and is funded by the state (in this example) however it teaches nonsense, regardless of the curriculum I am quite confident in saying that evolution would take a back seat compared to the church's views on how we came to be here.

That's what I don't understand when people who are non-Catholics want to go to a Catholic School. They think it is the best school but at the same time think they are teaching quite badly on R.E. I guess. Obviously, they think this is a very minor problem right given the huge number of applications?

[Norman121]

I personally don't think that there is any major reason to prevent the existence of faith schools as the choice to attend one is a clear one. If the school is faith based, surely there is some assumption by the parent that certain teachings will be religiously biased? It then becomes up to them to decide whether or not this is an acceptable trade-off for whatever they see as the benefit - perhaps it's the best school in the area academically. I would see this as no different to parents deciding whether or not to take their children to Church from a young age.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how I feel about government funding towards faith schools. If they're not receiving any special treatment though, I suppose this just creates more education opportunities.

Not really an opinion coming down on either side of the fence I know. Not being religious myself, I would never send a child to a faith school purely because those aren't my beliefs. However, I don't think the provision of faith schools is particularly damaging. Especially when you consider some places in the US seem to encourage statewide teaching of creationism with a complete disregard of theories of evolution and natural selection.

Best case scenario from my point of view: everybody is provided with a variety of views and evidence and allowed to make their own decisions to an extent. I've never held any religious views, but I would feel very closed-minded if I had no knowledge of anybody else's values.

[Saracen]

Hmmm, tricky.

Should children be indoctrinated into religious belief when, as far as I can tell, there's no actual evidence that any of those religions have it right? Clearly, no.

But .... there's also little or no actual evidence that the basis (though perhaps not so much the teachings) of those religions are wrong. And I do believed in parents being responsible for their kids, including being primarily the ones that decide what kids can't decide for themselves.

So .... let's suppose that, despite the absence of proof, some religion has nailed it and has the direct route of the will of the Creator of everything. Should they be forced to send their kids to a school that doesn't necessarily follow the requirements if that faith, and perhaps, has habits or practices that are directly contravening those requirements.

It doesn't matter what the requirements are (well, up to a point - I'd draw the line at human sacrifice, for instance). It might be having to face a given direction when praying, or it might be symbolic cannibalism, or it might be just about anything. If a religion requires that you do follow a given observance, or that you don't do something (like eat certain foods), why should the state insist that kids go to a school that doesn't follow the beliefs of the parents, especially if we can't prove that the parents are wrong, and more than they can prove they are right?

Ultimately, subject only to the laws of the land, parental responsibility says parents get to make decisions for their kids, and the school is in loco parentis ... standing in for the kids.

To my mind, therefore, schools ought to stay firmly out of the religion business, not teaching observance of any faith. Studies in comparative religion, where the basic tenets and principles of all major faiths might well be a good idea, even if so that upcoming generations at least have a better grasp of where other major segments of the British community are coming from, would be a good idea, but it'd require pretty delicate handing from a teacher to be able to teach what faith believe in without letting either own faith or absence of faith show through .... and kids are pretty good at picking up on the subliminal.They're likely to be able to sense when a teacher doesn't believe in,and perhaps doesn't even respect, the beliefs they're explaining, even assuming that a teacher is capable of of teaching the nature of beliefs they don't hold. I certainly don't think I could teach the nature of the beliefs of major religions without letting my absence of conviction show, even assuming I actually understood the nature of those beliefs well enough to teach them properly without having been an adherent of them in the first place.

Should we have faith schools? In an ideal world, schools should be areligious just as they should be apolitical. Let parents and formalised churches teach religion, not schools. But wed have to do it in a way that does not trample on parental responsibility or fail to permit what may be sincerely held religious requirements of both child and parent. And that won't be easy.

Whether the taxpayer should be paying for faith schools, in whole or in part, is another issue. And on that, my personal answer would be a clear and definitive no. But that's not the same as preventing schools from having a faith basis if that's what they want, and they can finance it, and as long as they stay within national laws.

[Saracen]

I personally don't think that there is any major reason to prevent the existence of faith schools as the choice to attend one is a clear one. If the school is faith based, surely there is some assumption by the parent that certain teachings will be religiously biased? It then becomes up to them to decide whether or not this is an acceptable trade-off for whatever they see as the benefit - perhaps it's the best school in the area academically. I would see this as no different to parents deciding whether or not to take their children to Church from a young age.
....

The argument, though, if that kids are very impressionable, and they tend to soak up the teaching of parents (and schools as stand-in parents) with a less than critical eye. In other words, they lack the critical skills of an adult to take what they're taught and question, question, question. And that early learning tends to be hard to overcome later.

The argument, therefore, is that teaching faith is in fact indoctrination, because it's taught when they don't have the skills, or brain chemistry, to rationlise and analyse. It amounts to pre-conditioning kids, and as it's done on a subject that more or less by definition is incapable of rational proof, is perhaps even a form of child abuse, because you implant a set of beliefs without being able to prove if they're right or not. And by giving the parent the right to choose the kid's indoctrination, all you do is perpetuate the indoctrination the parent received.

[Spud1]

I voted not, however I want to add a proviso..

If a "faith school" exists whereby the children are not subjected to any form of religious bias at all - positive or negative, then sure why not..but then thats not what a faith school really is I guess.

Or, people who go to "current style" faith schools where various religious beliefs impact what is being taught, should get a different qualification to the rest of us. If they do a-level science or sociology for example, then the fact that this was taught from a faith point of view should be reflected in the qualification, or on their record if talking about primary/early secondary education.

There also needs to be something written in to law to prevent the schools from teaching things which are (and i'm struggling with how to put this so as not to cause offence).against the law of the land or the laws of common sense. Such as prejudice against homosexuals, or against contraception. I'm not trying to be biased towards catholics there but to be honest those are the two points that came to mind straight away.

Its an incredibly difficult balancing act between religion and currently understood science really..and one that we're not going to solve here. I am a staunch believer in evolution, science and logic, and as such I am of the opinion that religion in general is all a bit silly..but I must stress that is just my opinion, and I do respect everyones freedom to believe/think what they like. If the vast majority of people have a belief, then thats fine..nothing wrong with that just because I don't agree

I've not touched on the whole indoctrination issue here either, partly as I think that has much wider implications than just faith schools..how children are so often brought up with a specific religion and then it becomes their own through no fault of their own, purely as they are impressionable. Some people (like me) go through that and then make up their own mind after seeing all the facts (one way or the other..clearly I went against my parents beliefs) but many will not. Thats a related but much wider issue imo.