Paying for university

[TheAnimus]

It isn't clear whether if you defer a place for year a tuition fees will remain as they are today ... something to bear in mind. We are strongly advising people in our 6th form to not take a gap year or defer due to this.

Oh yeah, but competition will be harder due to the bubble of people rushing in that year.

Also remember most unis you can change subject without it effecting your fees.

[Blitzen]

The potential of taking on high levels of a debt is disincentive in itself. Most students will understand that it is paid after you start earning but still the disincentive exists. This is the prevalent view of the 6th formers at the school I work at, it won't put most off going to University but this is a selective grammar school so their parents are on the whole pushing their sons towards it.

For families where no-one has been to University, much higher fees act as a greater disincentive and there is a real danger that without parents advising their children that the debt is worth it long term they won't bother. Less well off families fall into this, thus potentially poorer students are less likely to apply. Everyone in this thread understands the risks you take with debts and how to weigh up bad/good debts. Lots of young school leavers don't, them and their parents see £36k debts and say what's the point?

Sorry but i think you are completely off the mark!
If anything, a gifted student from a poorer background would be more likely to want to go to Uni, even with the costs involved, as they would have seen how their parents have struggled on a minimal income and would want to do better.

[jim]

Sorry but i think you are completely off the mark!
If anything, a gifted student from a poorer background would be more likely to want to go to Uni, even with the costs involved, as they would have seen how their parents have struggled on a minimal income and would want to do better.

That's ignoring expectations though. A lot of people I know, their parents would've had a heart attack if they'd suggested that they weren't going to bother with university. For them, it's considered a qualification of your intelligence and general worthiness, as pitiful a situation as that is.

[Moleie]

TBH, I think the tution fees need to be totally overhauled to reflect whether or not a particular degree cause has a benefit on society as a whole. Courses such as medicine, the hard sciences and finance all contribute towards society, whereas courses like "media studies" rarely contribute in a direct fashion.

In essence, pay if you want to study academia, get paid for if you want to study for particular careers.

I think it could be seen as very subjective as to what benerfits society, it also depends what people decide to do with there degree. Media studies has been mentioned as something that doesn't benefiit society, but what if the student goes on to work for British Public diplomacy campaigns or get obs in the press offices for charities, what if they are involved with writing official media policy and law what if they run information campaigns in Afgahnistan or design strategic military operations, do none of these things benerfit our society? Media is my background, and I hope I'll end up doing something that really matters to society, I'm sure most degrees can benefit society, and I'm sure a lot of people who take degrees that you would think do benefit society end up using there qualification to do something that doesn't.

[nibbler]

People see media as a degree which doesn't lead to any particular carreer (which applies to many degrees) but the thing that I personally find a bit silly is that it doesn't seem to open any doors to you - from what I've seen it's all common sense (I'm sure it's not but that's what I can conlude from my experience) and any of the jobs mentioned above could be done by people with degrees in other, more challenging courses.

[Moleie]

I realise this is getting a bit off topic, (I know some forums get very angry about this, I've not been here long enough to know.)

Just to continue my defence of Media though, I don't really think you can call it common sence, I'm not sure if your at all familar with the works of the Frankfert school (if not take a look at something like Adorno's The Culture Industry enlightenment and mass deception.) these are the kinds of readings done at degree level media, and if you think they can be understood with commonsence alone then I am very impressed by you.

Admittedly these kinds of theorists have never been my area of interest (although some understanding of them is ofcourse essential.) Virtually all arts degrees require a 15000 word dissertation on an area of research that hasn't really been explored before, I looked at Burmese Public Diplomacy, which obviously requires an understanding of how the international media works, the conepts behind Public Diplomacy and soft power and of course the situation in Burma and the world's attitude towards it. Obviously very little has been written on some of these things, so the point of the degree is learning how to research these things and how to uterlise the information.

As with most arts degrees the value isn't nessersarily in the facts you learn, but in developing the skills to find them and to use them. Arts degrees are not practical but they don't become out dated either, you learn skills not facts.

In 4 years other than a short elective photography and web design unit at the begining the most practical thing we've done was a 4 week simulation design an information campaign for the withdrawl of troops from Afghanistan, this obviously required indepth knowledge about the situation there along with NATO policies and historical understanding of what information campaigns work well and don't work well historically.

I know people have a low opinion of my degree, I do think t's a bit unfair, obviously it doesn't really matter what people think on a completly unrelated forum, but I often think people don't really understand what the degrees about when they form such an opinion. I thought by lettyng you know some of the things I've studied reacently you might realise it's not just a degree in watching television.

[nibbler]

I didn't say it WAS common sense, I said that's what it is at school and that's probably what people think it is.

[Robscure]

TBH, I think the tution fees need to be totally overhauled to reflect whether or not a particular degree cause has a benefit on society as a whole. Courses such as medicine, the hard sciences and finance all contribute towards society, whereas courses like "media studies" rarely contribute in a direct fashion.

In essence, pay if you want to study academia, get paid for if you want to study for particular careers.

Prostitutes get paid to study their craft

[Barrichello]

I realise this is getting a bit off topic, (I know some forums get very angry about this, I've not been here long enough to know.)

Just to continue my defence of Media though

I do not think you have to defend media. There is nothing wrong with people doing "media" degrees, that's totally up to them and their choice. Its just that many people like my self (especially when I did not go to uni) do not want part of our hard earned tax to pay for people to study it.

[Moleie]

I do not think you have to defend media. There is nothing wrong with people doing "media" degrees, that's totally up to them and their choice. Its just that many people like my self (especially when I did not go to uni) do not want part of our hard earned tax to pay for people to study it.

I think it's more of a case of ensuring everyone has an equal chance to go to University, I think it would be wrong for some to get a better education just because they are from rich families, obviously it wil always be a little like this, but the more that can be done to make things fairer the better in my opinion.

[Blitzen]

I think it's more of a case of ensuring everyone has an equal chance to go to University, I think it would be wrong for some to get a better education just because they are from rich families, obviously it wil always be a little like this, but the more that can be done to make things fairer the better in my opinion.

And you hit the nail on the head.
I am fully supportive of the need to make things 'fair for all'.
But...although a media degree is important for you, it isn't important for the rest of society, and is not an academic subject to benefit the population. This is why the taxpayer does not want to fund it.

If you were studying an academic subject (science/maths/etc), i would be more than happy to let my (very high) tax bill each month support that, on the premise you would stay in the UK long enough to be 'worth the money'.
Unfortunately though, and i admit, i know little about media studies, i cannot see how your course, whether you pass or fail, will be any good to anyone besides you have accomplished something.

No-one is saying you shouldn't do it......but they are definitely saying if you chose to do this, then you should foot the bill and not some poor sod on minimum wage.

I thought by lettyng you know some of the things I've studied reacently you might realise it's not just a degree in watching television.

True.....and it is good you have this sense of achievement.
On the other hand, you aren't going to find a cure for cancer or develop the next ICBM are you.This is the point really.

[Moleie]

Well as with a lot of degrees you can go into a lot of different things with it, I'm looking att Public Diplomacy etc, which is the process of making Britain and the things Britain wants look appealing to the publics of the rest of the world so that they will put preessure on there governments to make the decsions Britain wats them too.
I'm also interested in things like Psycological warfare, which sounds nasty, but it's about ways to win wars without killing people, surely these things are important to the country.

What's more the jobs in these feilds are never likely to pay a huge amount, where as some of the courses that have been suggested above as vital to society, lead to lucrative carears anyway.

Am I right in thinking that you suggest it's mainly vocational courses that should be subserdised? the skills developed in acadeic carears allow people to quickly gain other skills independtly, allowing them to take on a much larger number of possible carears.

[Blitzen]

What's more the jobs in these feilds are never likely to pay a huge amount

Which is again why the taxpayer should not foot any of the costs.
If the job isn't going to pay 'a huge amount', then you are doing it for self satisfaction. I applaud that, i really do.
Self satisfaction though will come at a price, and you must pay it and not me.

As someone said earlier, Universtity isn't a right....it's a priviledge. Priviledge comes at a cost.

I'm looking att Public Diplomacy etc, which is the process of making Britain and the things Britain wants look appealing to the publics of the rest of the world so that they will put preessure on there governments to make the decsions Britain wats them too.
I'm also interested in things like Psycological warfare, which sounds nasty, but it's about ways to win wars without killing people, surely these things are important to the country

They are yes.
I seriously doubt a degree in Media Studies would catapult you into these realms though.
You are trying so hard to sell your story, but you have said nothing to convince.

(btw...you do not need to explain what job functions are. Most of us are intelligent enough to know).

[neonplanet40]

The only thing that really annoys me about it all and maybe its the same thing that others are annoyed about too is that everyone before them got to pursue university at little or no cost to themselves. Tax payer paid for it yes i know.

My university education cost me £19,869. To me thats fair. But the amount they are being asked to pay now in my opinion would be quite hard to swallow if it was me going to university. Considering the people who are passing these laws didnt even have to pay fee's.

[Moleie]

(btw...you do not need to explain what job functions are. Most of us are intelligent enough to know).

I mentioned it earlier and you didn't comment on it, and it's not as obvious as some jobs (IE doctor) so I figured Id breifly explain, I wasn't trying to be patronising.
I'm not really sure what other degrees would better suit these kind of jobs.

[Bugbait]

I'm not really sure what other degrees would better suit these kind of jobs.

Off the top of my head, various arts majors (psychology, political science, etc.), commerce, law and science just to name a few. To be honest I’m so out of touch with current university curriculum’s that I’m sure there are plenty more.