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Thread: how an atheist found God.

  1. #241
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    Re: how an atheist found God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by free will. We weigh up decisions in our minds, we make choices, and we do not experience any pressure in making those decisions. They are still, however, fundamentally chemical reactions in our brain - far too complex to understand fully (at least currently, I don't know about whether it's theoretically possible to understand these processes) and certainly far too complex to have predictable outcomes - but chemical reactions nonetheless.

    The fact that these chemical reactions are so complex as to be able to allow us to experience choices and their consequences without the need for a 'spirit' or 'soul' is mind blowing - but all the evidence we have suggests it's true.
    Of course, there will be chemical reactions, in terms of the response to physical senses, of the decisions that go out to the body ('close your eyes' etc) or simply thoughts. There is no conflict. What you are assuming, however, is that we are simply and only a machine. The Christian would argue that there is a soul which controls the machine - the chemical reactions are the servants, not the authors.

    Of course, then the whole matter becomes impossible to prove - the existence of the soul, blah blah.

    Interestingly, free will is not a very biblical idea, see here for a list of bible quotes about free will - two suggest we do have free will and eight suggest we don't.
    Read those. There are FAR more, and as with pretty much any verse, they can be quoted out of context - out of context of verses alongside, out of context of chapter, out of context of book. Is such a common source of mistaken belief in biblical contradiction.
    ALL those misunderstandings can be solved


    And as closing note - I'll read the pages of thread I missed, tomorrow - free will is shown so clearly right in Genesis. It doesn't have to be written out as formally as a scientific thesis.
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  2. #242
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    Re: how an atheist found God.

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    No. They're still responsible because punitive measures discourages bad decision making. The existence of the justice system itself is a causal factor. I've already explained this. You have higher brain function, it's used to evaluate choices and aid decision making, you also have the physiological functions to exert your decision on the environment in a limit means.. You have 'will' as it were, but it isn't free, it's shaped by your environment as you shape it, genetic inheritance, and other physically tangible factors. As with all higher order animals.

    Now you're starting to get it. The universe is an entire system. What gives us an 'inside' is perception from our own conciousness and cognitive processing. But the physical interactions of the universe are all part of the same cosmic proscenium.
    My apologies on the very long delay before this reply. It's just that a little over seven weeks ago my first baby boy was born and so, as you might imagine, I've been rather busy. This topic being as deep as it is, I wanted to be able to think things over and give a good look at it before responding.

    In response to this question and others as regards the notion of free will and it's relevance I'd like, if I may, too offer this. I think with regards to what's been written here so far, I believe people may be thinking too small on this question. Responding to Aidanjt's post, you are not following your own logic to the logical conclusion which is allowing certain contradictory elements to co-exist. You mention that the universe is an entire system. Then you mention that we get an 'inside perception' via our consciousness. These two are contradictory in a physical universe which is the 'entire system' If the material calculations are 'entirety' then there is no 'inside perception'. There is no inside or outside. There is only one thing - the cold, physical calculations of the universe. If not, what is our consciousness, our cognitive processing? Is it not simply another inevitable result of the cosmic calculator making things as happen as the always must? If you state that there is nothing but the physical which arises from the elemental, working itself out according to mathematical and physical laws, whatever perception we have is, by necessity, a delusion - because 'we' do not exist, 'I' does not exist. We are simply chemicals interaction and creating this incredible result of perceived individuality. Another example of this contradiction is where you state, "You have higher brain function". Higher than what? Higher than chemistry? Higher than the physical laws which forced the universe to be, and which direct its every step? You say that we have will but that it is not free, that is "shaped by your environment". Yet should it not be the case that if the material is all there is, then our will is not shaped by our environment, but is in fact simply another part of that environment - another part of the universal equation? If will is not free, then it is not will, it is simply equation. Will must have freedom to it. If not, as I said previously, then there is no culpability, no reward, no recognition.

    Your analysis is too simple. You cannot argue for a lack of freedom and then also talk about choice. Freedom, even limited freedom, is still freedom. Either you must allow for it, and then try to explain it, or you must remove it entirely. Either we do have some element of free will - indicating inviduality and responsibility through choice and action and reaction - or we do not - and individuality and responsibility are also removed, and everything becomes essentially meaningless. Your philosphy of choice, by necessity, becomes Nihilism. If, in your universe, that even means something.

    I think this is quite enlightening. I think these questions of freedom and choice and individuality show us something. We all take their existence for granted. They are an undeniable part of existence. But when we consider them in the light of materialism, we find them hard to explain. Perhaps they are not a proof of spirituality, but they seems highly suggestive of it. That human beings are more than the sum of their physical parts. They seems to suggest that such is part of the universe as we know it, adn so, along with our understanding of the physical part, we should also try to understand the non-physical part, the 'spiritual' part which I think we all experience but do not always fully consider.

    I think that quite often, maybe all the time, it is staring us in the face. Quite honestly, I don't see how a purely material explanation can ever account for it.
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    Re: how an atheist found God.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuddam View Post
    With the NT, there are 85,000+ corroborations of the scripture dating back to the early church fathers, showing the current NT we have today being all accounted for, aside from 11 insignificant verses, and all 45 additions accounted and noted (which incidentally do not detract or contradict the rest of the NT).

    The current content of the NT has nothing to do with any council convened 300 years after the fact. It has nothing to do with old men sitting in a room and arbitrarily deciding what to include and reject. It is the most historically authenticated document on the planet, by far, in terms of consistency / accuracy with its original texts.
    Of course, this depends what you define as corroboration. The Synoptic gospels corroborate each other, but that doesn't make them any more valid. Actually it's evidence of how invalid they are, since they likely have two authors.

    As for consistency, the many, many inconsistencies, inaccuracies, contradictions and miss-translations have been pointed out to you a dozen times.

    Aside from this, old writings are not evidence of the contents. The bible isn't proof of God any more than The Book of Mormon (Which is generally consistent and has more historical accuracy than the bible), is evidence that Joseph Smith's 'Seer Stones' actually worked.

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    Re: how an atheist found God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    My apologies on the very long delay before this reply. It's just that a little over seven weeks ago my first baby boy was born and so, as you might imagine, I've been rather busy.
    No problem, and congratulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    [...]
    I believe I already covered your points earlier when I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt
    One should not confuse incomprehensible complexity with free will, just as one shouldn't confuse imperceivable vastness of the night sky with it being small.
    There's no magical or supernatural goings on. Just a "black box" processing inputs and providing outputs to other bits of biological machinery.
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    ...every time Creative bring out a new card range their advertising makes it sound like they have discovered a way to insert a thousand Chuck Norris super dwarfs in your ears...

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