50p tax thing, should we keep it long term?

[TheAnimus]

So this ones back in the news again, the 50pence tax.

I'm just wondering what most hexites think about it, seeing as we're quite a diverse lot!

I also think its interesting to know which side of the fence people are on when they have an opinion on it.

I don't think its really a good idea, I don't think its fair or practical and before you ask, no I'm not personally subjected to the 50p tax.

The issue is we are asking a small percentage of the population to give away over half of their income, granted its only above 150, but over half (by the time you've taken NI and other taxes in to account) is psychologically quite harsh.

The thing is its not really catching the utlra rich business tycoon types, they already use non-dom status.

Its not catching the born in to a trust fund lot, as they only pay CGT.

So its really hitting a small bracket of people earning a nice amount of money, but not a super lot of money.

I've also personally seen how its driven away a lot of firms, including a former employer. It was the final straw for them.

[kalniel]

It think it's necessary to help the rest of the population accept austerity measures - so while the financial gain might be small (or even a loss - I await the IRS report), the psychological benefit elsewhere probably makes it worth it while we still have such a deficit.

If they really wanted to raise money from the rich it'd be via CGT etc, as you mention.

PS next round's on you.

[TheAnimus]

It think it's necessary to help the rest of the population accept austerity measures

This is something I'm sick of actually.

Who is responsible for the need for such nasty measures? Anyone who spent beyond their means.

That is who, if we hadn't voted in Labour and spent so far beyond our means we wouldn't need any such budget slashing. If people were responsible with credit rather than squandering it, we would have no debt to repay.

But we didn't. We spent, and spent, and spent, with nothing much to show for it. This helped drive our economy, and people were buying stupid things they didn't need on credit cards. PCs, TVs etc. If you've bought one of those and you've got un-secured debt, you are part of this economic downturn.

Did the majority of people in the 50p bracket create this issue, probably not, they tend to not need credit.

Why do people some how need to blame someone else for these actions.... Someone who is subject to the 40p bracket at 150k, will give more of a % of their income in tax, than someone who is on 50k. Why single out this group, who I would have hazarded a guess are less likely to be responsible for the bubble.

[kalniel]

Who is responsible for the need for such nasty measures? Anyone who spent beyond their means.

That's making the assumption that the great masses are of adequate intelligence and education to make the right decisions for themselves and their country. They can't. We can't - it's been shown time and time again, including in scientifically controlled experiments, that humans will consistently take decisions that will leave them worse off as a group or in the long run. Knowing that, does the responsibility lie with the person we know is going to take the wrong decision, or the system that allows them to, on the hope that it would create more profit?

I consider myself not part of the cause - I don't even own my own house therefore have no debt - and anyway it was supposedly secured debt that drove a lot of these problems in the first place. But now I'm stuffed because house prices are so extortionately high and no-one in my town wants to let developers build more houses because it might have an impact on their own house price. Lack of intelligence on my part.

[cptwhite_uk]

Couple of points

1) If you don't think £100,000 is more than enough to live on, in luxury I might add, then I'd consider that an insult to the vast majority of the population who live their whole lives on about a quarter of that and don't moan about it.

2) You aren't automatically paying more than 50% when you reach £150k. I don't know the exact values but taking into account NI @ 7%, Tax free allownace @ 7000, 20% tax from 7k to 40k, and 40% tax from 40k to 150k. You don't end up paying more than 50% tax until you reach about £340k per year. At 150k you're paying about 40% tax all things considered. Anywhere between 150k and 340k and it's a somewhere inbetween (about about 45% at 245k for example). My point being, you're point suggesting a "psychological" barrier. Well, you don't hit it until 340k.

...edit: Yes I realise you're referring specifically to money earnt over 150k, but you make reference to giving away half their income (with a small clarification). I just didn't think your point was made very clearly and came across as suggesting +50% is taken in tax over and above 150k *overall*, which is way under the true figure at which 50%, overall, is taken.

Surely we should be talking about the overall percentage taken in tax as that's the real world figure you should be looking at?

[roachcoach]

If you've bought one of those and you've got un-secured debt, you are part of this economic downturn.

I did that and I disagree, because I didn't do it outwith my capability to repay.

Said debt is now gone....shop made money, bank made a bit of money and I got what I wanted, now repaid...literally no losers. Unless I'm missing something

______________________________________________________________________________

Personally I don't get the whole blame thing, it helps nothing, why can't we all just get it fixed?

It's like someone saying "Oh, my house is on fire, but *I* didn't light it so I'm not putting it out, it's someone else's responsibility". They're right, but they're stupid all the same.

Goddamned litigation culture, 'where there's blame there's a claim'. Everyone want's someone else to blame, someone else to clear it up.

This thread will be heated soon.

[Smudger]

I'm all for the tax. It meant my former employers upped sticks and left for Jersey, giving us all a bit of peace.

[TheAnimus]

2) You aren't automatically paying more than 50% when you reach £150k. I don't know the exact values but taking into account NI @ 7%......

they are on everything above 150, which is what I meant by the whole granted, its only above 150k.....
I think very few people who earn £350k+ actually pay tax on anything like as much, there I said it.

I did that and I disagree, because I didn't do it outwith my capability to repay.

Then you don't have the debt.

Personally I don't get the whole blame thing, it helps nothing, why can't we all just get it fixed?

That is my point, I'm not saying someone who used debt for their lifestyle is the sole person to blame, not at all. Just that I'm sick to death of people saying "its someone else".

Thats why when I see the size of our defect, I think we all have to do something to reduce it. I never voted for Labour, hell I wasn't old enough too when they did most of their damage, but I'm none the less going to do my part repaying it.

[TheAnimus]

Part of me is whishing I'd made this a public poll now, because I don't think its probable that over 75% of hexus users have an income of over 150k lol.

[cptwhite_uk]

See edited in comment above

[capt_cornflake]

Against it but mainly because i can't see it can possibly take that much, and the admin costs for HMRC must offset a lot of that (and of course there's additional admin on the payees side as well).

I'd much rather have a simpler system of taxation all round, rather than the current system which is so arcane that practically no-one fully understands it.

I think the argument for it from a symbolic point isn't so much blame (although I'm sure there's a bit of that from some quarters), more that the cutbacks disproportionately affect the poor and the rich should also suffer a bit as well.

[Kata]

You guys in Britain have it easy. In the Socialist hellhole that is the Netherlands, I pay 52% tax on everything above about 40k Euros. I can't wait to leave for somewhere a little more pro-personal-responsibility, and stop funding all the wasters.

[roachcoach]

Since you have legalised drugs and hookers, I'm sorry, my sympathy levels are rock bottom

[Bugbait]

I actually wanted to vote against a 50% tax for anyone but had to settle for Against the 50p rate, with income below £150k since that's closer to what I support than Against the 50p rate, with income above £150k.

I'm not convinced the additional revenue raised would be enough to offset the feeling of "tall poppy syndrome". As TheAnimus mentioned, a lot of people earning over £150k engage specialist accountants and tax lawyers to reduce their tax burden. I knew several people working for the Big 4 (well, was Big 6 back then) that specialised in people making AUD$350k+. Some of the schemes were quite convoluted but perfectly legal.

[Smudger]

Since you have legalised drugs and hookers, I'm sorry, my sympathy levels are rock bottom

Hookers are tax-paying citizens there, and there must be quite a large tax take from drugs as well...
If we taxed our junkies and hookers, we could probably do away with the 50% level, and maybe bring down the 40% one...
Or up the level you start paying it at...

[TheAnimus]

Actually, with the need for new revenue streams I'm disapointed reviewing prohibition hasn't cropped up.

It would be interesting to see how much they would make, if you could go to the supermarket and buy some weed as well as a bottle of whiskey. I mean go to waitrose to buy some organically grown, purple durple from selected farmers, as well as your bottle of single malt.

Obviously anyone who went to asda for the skunk and bought jack daniels is a druggie.