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Thread: Reno Crash.

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    Hexus.Jet TeePee's Avatar
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    Reno Crash.

    For anyone living in a hole, there was a tragic crash at the Reno Air Races yesterday. A highly modified P-51 crashed and a number of spectators were killed.

    There has been some speculation over the cause, but honestly there isn't much of the airplane left.

    This may be an excuse to cancel the races in the future on safety grounds. It may also be used to question the safety of the Red Bull races which happen in England.

    Before anyone mourns the loss of a historical artifact, let me point out this airplane was built for racing and had very little resemblance to the historical P-51.

    I'd agree that every reasonable step should be taken to protect the public attending this kind of event, and I believe they were taken. The FAA has always had a heavy presence there. If an element of danger exists for people who choose to attend an event, is this a good enough reason for it to be prohibited? At what point should a line be drawn?

    A similar but far worse accident happened at the 1961 Italian Grand Prix, and resulted in significant safety improvements in the design of tracks and positioning of stands, but even so there may still be an element of risk. Would a big accident mean the end of Formula One?

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Reno Crash.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    For anyone living in a hole, there was a tragic crash at the Reno Air Races yesterday. A highly modified P-51 crashed and a number of spectators were killed.

    There has been some speculation over the cause, but honestly there isn't much of the airplane left.

    This may be an excuse to cancel the races in the future on safety grounds. It may also be used to question the safety of the Red Bull races which happen in England.

    Before anyone mourns the loss of a historical artifact, let me point out this airplane was built for racing and had very little resemblance to the historical P-51.

    I'd agree that every reasonable step should be taken to protect the public attending this kind of event, and I believe they were taken. The FAA has always had a heavy presence there. If an element of danger exists for people who choose to attend an event, is this a good enough reason for it to be prohibited? At what point should a line be drawn?

    A similar but far worse accident happened at the 1961 Italian Grand Prix, and resulted in significant safety improvements in the design of tracks and positioning of stands, but even so there may still be an element of risk. Would a big accident mean the end of Formula One?
    It's about risk management. In formula 1 there was/is a belief that the most dangerous elements can be mitigated through rules and technology. It's constantly assessed with the aim of tweaking in advance of a problem rather than afterwards. But then cars on a racetrack are rather closer to a containable energy level than aeroplanes.

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    Re: Reno Crash.

    Certainly an airplane has a lot more energy and less chance of containment, but the 'track' is also much further away from the crowd.

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Reno Crash.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    Certainly an airplane has a lot more energy and less chance of containment, but the 'track' is also much further away from the crowd.
    There's no containment at all - it's the equivalent of f1 racing without crash barriers - there's no physical protection on the boundaries of the 'track' or separating the crowd from the 'track'. You can be further away, but it's pretty meaningless if that distance doesn't gain you anything in terms of safety (time to run out of the way/a mechanism to dissipate energy/etc).

    And there can't really be. The best you can do is to mitigate the chance of a flightpath ever straying over the crowd, even as a result of mechanical failure, but that's quite hard. I guess the question here would be in the reducing the risk of error from plane or pilot - so higher standard of mechanical worthiness, perhaps through regulation parts etc. and mandated health/training for pilots.

    That's not really answering your original question, sorry, but I do believe the risks in F1 are significantly lower.
    Last edited by kalniel; 17-09-2011 at 09:55 PM.

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    Re: Reno Crash.

    looking at the video it just fell out of the sky. I haven't seen anything like that before, really odd. Maybe the wings just fell off under the huge stress.

    There is so much money in F1 it would take a accident big enough to destroy the entire track to call it off.
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    Re: Reno Crash.

    There's a pic floating round just before the crash showing a rear tail 'flap' (?) loose, can't remember where I saw it :/

    Image 3 here, its NOT the pic I'm on about but the missing bit of the tail on another pic has a strip hanging off it... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14957637

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    Re: Reno Crash.

    As EJ is always pointing out, "motorsport is dangerous, it says so on the ticket" and and that goes double if you put it in the sky. Ultimately the crowd are drawing their entertainment from the speed and the risks. Something they choose to do of their own free will and wanted it bad enough to pay for it, but with freedom comes consequence. Don't gamble anything you aren't willing to lose at the end of the day.

    Of course this is a tragedy and my thoughts go out to those lost and injured. We should always be trying to make such things safer, but I see no reason to ban this or anything else this dangerous.

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    Re: Reno Crash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_B View Post
    There's a pic floating round just before the crash showing a rear tail 'flap' (?) loose, can't remember where I saw it :/

    Image 3 here, its NOT the pic I'm on about but the missing bit of the tail on another pic has a strip hanging off it... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14957637
    I've seen the picture you are referring to. My understanding is the P-51 had a trim tab here, which was removed and replaced with a blanking plate as part of his airplane's modifications. The plate is gone, and there is a suggestion it was lost as a result of flutter (due to the high speed). A trim issue has previously led to an uncommanded pitch up in another airplane which resulted in the pilot blacking out from the G forces and regaining consciousness at 9000ft. If the airplane were trimmed to roll, then this may be a possible cause.

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    Moosing about! CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: Reno Crash.

    It seems a T28 Trojan has also crashed killing the pilot!

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    Re: Reno Crash.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    It seems a T28 Trojan has also crashed killing the pilot!
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20107788.shtml
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    Re: Reno Crash.

    http://skeptoid.com/blog/2011/09/17/broken-mustangs/

    A couple of pics here including one suggestion he was passed out.

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    Re: Reno Crash.

    Scary photo, does seem to give some credence to the unconscious theory when taken with the preceding photo. The dive angle looks pretty constant.

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    Re: Reno Crash.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    Would a big accident mean the end of Formula One?
    Nope, it'd just prompt the FIA to introduce preventative/speed reducing/competition crushing regulations which suck the life out of the sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent View Post
    ...every time Creative bring out a new card range their advertising makes it sound like they have discovered a way to insert a thousand Chuck Norris super dwarfs in your ears...

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    Re: Reno Crash.

    I guess the spectator injuries were all caused by flying debris as the aircraft disintegrated on impact.

    IIRC, there have been fatalities at racetracks from car debris, but the energies are lower, and the high risk areas (corners) can be reasonably accurately predicted and energy absorbing measures and spectator separation measures implemented.

    That is much less easy to do in a three dimensional space. Unless the aircraft breaks up in mid-air (when debris will be scattered anyway) any uncontrolled ground impact is likely to result in the widespread distribution of debris, so the only realistic safety measure is going to be distance. Can you separate the spectators from the action to meet the conflicting requirements of the entertainment experience and safety? Probably not.

    Were the safety precautions in place enough to be reduce the residual risk to as low as reasonably possible? (a UK requirement - may be different in the US) . That is probably something that will be explored in the subsequent crash investigation - and litigation. And the impact on future event insurance premiums.
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    Re: Reno Crash.

    I distinctly recall a commentator at le mans this year pointing out that when they have a big off, it's essentially the same as a small plane crash. Which is true, but as others have said, there's a lot more places to in the sky.

    We seem to have a culture these days of banning anything remotely interesting on fear of legal proceedings/perceived 'danger' and that's a real shame. I remember experiments I did in 1st year of high school being banned by my 6th year. These days it'd be a wonder if there are even labs any more.

    We seem to have forgotten that, in spite of best intentions, sometimes **** really does just happen.

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