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Thread: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    It's a golden cash cow, a capital pipeline syphoning off real productive cash from the poor and middle classes, and dumping it into the laps of the rich, having provided ZERO production value, not even the tiniest amount, negative production value, in fact. The entire financial system is a private, world wide, wealth transfer bureaucracy for the wealthiest families to gain tax-level income without the risk of rebellion, war, invasion, or limitations of kingdom borders they had to put up with as Lords and Monarchs. But it costs society a stupendous amount of money to maintain, and frequently implodes, massively accelerating wealth transfer away from debtors, right when they're most in need of a break.

    Our entire understanding of economics is in dire need of a rewrite. Doing away with all that 18th century self-serving claptrap paraded as 'enlightenment', alone, would do wonders to the state of our economy.
    Brilliant posting aidanjt. It's been a long time coming but change is gonna come.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    So not only do the 99% have to surrender their capital, but they need the permission of the top 1% to do anything as well? That's just stupid. You wouldn't accept it from government, so why should you have to accept it from the private financial system which you have no say over its management?
    Wait what? What 'permission of the top 1%' do they need? I'm really confused were your coming from with this....
    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    Why not? If you borrow P, you have to pay back P+I. If you can't afford P, then how in the name of God do you afford P+I? P didn't exist before you borrowed it, but you still have to pay that in real capital cash, and I, too. So they're giving you nothing more than a permission slip to buy/invest in whatever you want to do with P, and you have to pay them back real capital. And, with continuous credit money being injected into the market as if it were sound money, the market inflates to exploit the additional money, which eats into the capital of savers, an effective wealth transfer from poor to rich. Again, coercing them to choose credit over savings.
    But the problem is its very simplistic, child like, and almost religious to say all money lending is evil and wrong, its not.

    It should always be mutually beneficial, an example would be someone buying a car with credit, because their last one was beyond economic repair. They have saved money by being able to get a new one, that will cost them less. To make it worth their while they would, in this absurdly simplistic example, have to save more money, than the costs (ie interest) would be. Now this is the real interesting thing, in this scenario the person who has borrowed the money will be ultimately better off than the one who has lent it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    And it's not as if people no longer want stuff when the credit stops flowing. People still want and need things, and producers still have them to trade. It's simply the financial system seizing up like the dysfunctional mess it is. And we really don't need those kinds of barriers getting in between transactions.
    What kinds of barriers?!! The reason why people buy services from the financial instutations is because they make things easier, they are ment to help distribute the risk.
    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    It's a golden cash cow, a capital pipeline syphoning off real productive cash from the poor and middle classes, and dumping it into the laps of the rich, having provided ZERO production value, not even the tiniest amount, negative production value, in fact. The entire financial system is a private, world wide, wealth transfer bureaucracy for the wealthiest families to gain tax-level income without the risk of rebellion, war, invasion, or limitations of kingdom borders they had to put up with as Lords and Monarchs. But it costs society a stupendous amount of money to maintain, and frequently implodes, massively accelerating wealth transfer away from debtors, right when they're most in need of a break.
    Wow, that is an interesting point of view, doubt its shared by many economists, all you need now is something about the rotschilds and 9/11!.. But in all seriousness something like a futures market for onions has demonstrated the value it provides, we saw how when derivitative trading was banned, a volatile market became more volatile. Just because you are too ignorant to see the worth of something doesn't mean it has no value, now I'm not for a second saying its perfect, far, far from it. But in the same way I feel like I'm standing next to the Dr who's blunder killed a member of the tribe, we have a lot of deaths and a lot of failure in medicine, yet no one riots against it, instead we normally try to improve our understanding.

    If you look at the richest people in the world right now, they are not born in to luxury, the telecoms dude in Mexico, a questionable person he may be, but, as we go down the list we see quite simply how your theory doesn't add up.

    You get to the likes of Buffet, who really do talk about the issues with the financial situation, he is incredibly scathing of the status quo, but he is often suggesting solutions, tax people like him more (in the US they pay very little), be weary of geeks bearing gifts etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    Our entire understanding of economics is in dire need of a rewrite. Doing away with all that 18th century self-serving claptrap paraded as 'enlightenment', alone, would do wonders to the state of our economy.
    Which self-serving claptrap is that? Again I'm having thoughts of this trib saying get the Dr the hell out, we want our witchcraft back!

    There are issues with our current system, one of the biggest is how it doesn't seem to provide anyone with any real happyness, it serves in now way to help most people with their thoughts of the purpose of their life. But its a damned side better than not having the freedom to choose ourselves at all!
    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    Life is unfair because the system is unfair. Hence, the protests.
    That is the issue, people think they can make life fair.... Its like they never had that time when you become adolescent and don't get out of bed for a week because you come to terms with how **** the world is....

    Notice how in all this, not one person is holding a plackard talking about all those people worse off than themselves, and I mean REALLY worse off. But hey, most of those people aren't white, so why bother giving a damn!
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    Somebody must stop the Imperial Criminal US police state, the CIA is the pretorian (GESTAPO) army of the US government engaged in terrorist criminal attack against Iraq and Afganistan


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    Last edited by tonschk; 04-10-2011 at 02:11 PM.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    “If you’re not careful, the media will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing” - Malcolm X

    The very very very very simple version of the protesters' problem is that there was a recession as a result of bat**** insane banking practices (sub-prime mortgages != securities).
    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    Billionaires got taxpayer money to make themselves feel better in the form of "bailouts". Meanwhile, the super-wealthy ("top 1%) have done EXTREMELY well out of it and vastly increased their wealth over the last few years
    Now which billionaires exactly? Its often thrown around that they did, but I don't see any evidence of it? You look at people like Buffet, and (BRK-A) and he's lost a lot of money over the difficult years, in fact the only people I can think of who've been rising up and up are the likes of steve jobs. Its a struggle to suggest that everyone bought iPads with the increased liquidity.....
    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    and everyone else has found themselves struggling to even get a McDonalds job, with average standard of living and quality of life dropping significantly year-on-year compared to 30 years ago. Governments insist on repeatedly disproven so-called voodoo economics, where you give all the moneys to the richest people and hope that they piss their money down the ladder enough that everyone gets some - and it in no way reflects the reality of things.
    disproven so-called voodoo economics? I'd hope for some examples of what is been disproved and what is the trickle down effect your talking about? The best example of the failure to achive a more uniform distrabution of wealth I could find is:
    http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/fac...ome&wealth.htm
    Its a hard thing to quantify, but I'm guessing that's it?

    Also for people in the US, they aren't better off than they were 30 years ago on average. For a start off if someone is black they are probably much better off, despite still chronic ghettoisation and blatent racisim in the education system helping to keep a two class level of life. The primary change in life in the US has been due to oil costs..... Thats a different issue to the one they are protesting about.
    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    Wouldn't you be angry if by the time you finished a degree, you had nothing but debt - and all your job prospects vanished when the super-wealthy decided to hoard all their taxpayer money?
    no, because I know thats not what is happening right now, due to a lack of evidence except of course from the 9/11 was a government plot lot.

    Can you give me an example of these people who've taken the taxpayer money?
    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    Not to mention the regressive tax regime where the McDonalds burger flipper pays a higher percentage of their income to the state - money which is then spent on bailouts and subsidies for megacorps - than the hedge-fund manager.
    Because the burger flipper uses a much higher amount of resources per tax amount than the hedge fund manager. The hedge fund manager can also easily be a non-dom or the like, which is another kettle of fish all together.

    But here's a shocker, why should the burger flipper be having a life at the expense of someone else, no matter who that other person is, who has no desire for their services?

    One could argue Bill & Melinda Gates should be taxed more on their monies, so that the burger flipper can get more of it! Obviously there is a finite amount of cash that they want to live with for themselves first, before they give it to their charity, what would happen with any change in tax there. There a many un-intended consiquences to such ideas, and they often make things worse.

    This is why arguments like the ones in your post confuse me, your accusing these rich of having taxpayer money, (citation needed), then not paying enough tax? Surely if they've got taxpayer money their 'net' tax is -ve so the argument their not paying enough is pointless, they need to pay some first!
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    Environ'mentalist Zadock's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    How can you discuss it when the political and financial leadership are in bed together and are desperate to re-establish the system as was before the recession without any public input whatsoever, or even as much as being privy to what's being discussed behind closed doors? That's the point of the protests, for people to say enough is enough, is the first step in effecting change.


    Perhaps, because that's the only purpose those without any prospects have. It's hardly childish to exercise your democratic right to protest against a grave injustice, which hasn't as much as been investigated.
    Totally agree. I'd also like to add, and I had a discussion/ errr... arugement with a lady from the Deparment of Communities and Local Government about this, this coalition government are trying to hide the fact they are trying to get back to business as usual including by adding "sustainable economic growth" in their definition of Sustainable Development. I'm sorry but that is an enormous contradiction in terms in both contexts of the word sustainable, how can an economy that is based on a cycle of boom and bust and that is fuelled by finite resources be "sustainable" in terms of time and in terms of the socio-environmental aspects? Said lady got most upset and started shouting at me about how we need to get ourselves out of the recession, to which I said that I agreed but using the same economic model that got us in this situation in the first place and by continuing to ignore the bigger picture in terms of resoruces.

    Bottom line is, the way we do things needs to change... But its like we can see the brick wall, we know everything is going to explode in our faces unyet we keep putting our foot on the accelerator.
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    The US government are ACTUALLY the real Terrorists




    .

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    Quote Originally Posted by tonschk View Post
    The US government are ACTUALLY the real Terrorists
    Hi, please leave this thread, not funny, not on-topic.
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    Soros sympathises with the protesters ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15155046

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    I feel that the point is this: 1% of the American populace control 50% of their total wealth.

    Are they 50x cleverer that the rest of the population? Do they work 50x as hard? Because if not, surely you've got to think that there's an inequality built into the system somewhere?

    My wife and my best friend both have Firsts in History from the OU and so I'm clearly aware of the advantages of a capitalist economy as gainst a 'centrally planned' one, and there's clearly a place for talented economists to work in the city and allocate money to deserving causes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Then you also say it hasn't as much as been investigated. Thats utter horse crap, and I think shows how little you understand this situation. A lot of what has happened is a case of honest mistakes.
    Oh right. Erm....so from 1995-2007 the average UK house price tripled on the back of almost unlimited bank credit (our GDP hasn't tripled). Mortgage Equity Witdrawal was a perfectly acceptable way to buy yourself a new 4x4; and people who got into real trouble were encouraged to consolidate their debts on a secured loan against the ever increasing value of their house, from, say Ocean Finance- bought by AIG in 2006, and clearly a great, savvy buy.

    So bankers lent money they'd made out of thin air against an asset (residential property) that was very clearly in the midst of a massive bubble, and it was all an honest mistake?

    Are you having a laugh with me mate? Seriously?

    I wouldnt even mind if they'd owned up to their 'honest mistake' and said 'yeah, we're bust, sorry about that shareholders, see you later'. But they blamed it on the 'global economic crisis' and persuaded that utter muppet Gordon Brown (degree subject- History.... evidently not economic history) to bail them out of a crisis entirely of their own making.

    Those who were knowingly been fruadulent have actually gone to prison or been 'bumped off' (enron, maddoff etc). The downside is they STILL haven't put in place simple things like APR, however for most of the sub prime lot that is little use anyway as they won't understand it. There are so many different schools of thought right now investigating what the biggest issue here was, there might emerge one 'excepted' theory, but no time soon by the looks of it.
    I don't understand any of that, but I can tell you what the issue is: sheer greed- and a supine reluctance to challenge the power of money to perpetuate itself while screwing anybody below the 80th percentile. Teepee posted a quite offensive, cherry picking photoshop of some of the, apparently, least deserving protestors- but TBH it looks to me like they have momentum, and in the "1% of people- 50% of the money" slogan I personally think they have a winner, because they're absolutely right. They have been screwed. And if they can wake up even 30% of the other 99%- I think they'll effect real change, because the poorest in America have been going hungry for a while now, and that's spreading with the economic downturn. If I were a rich American I'd be pretty keen on redistributing a negotiable proportion of my wealth, before a starving and statutorily armed populace come to take it off me by force!
    Last edited by Rave; 09-10-2011 at 04:55 AM.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    They aren't the 99%. They are the 47%. The 47% of Americans who don't pay any taxes. They need to stop occupying Wall Street and start occupying a job.

    The problem here isn't banks, it's government. A small decision in the 1970's that said that student loan debt couldn't be discharged in bankruptcy. Suddenly anyone could get student loans, irregardless of academic ability. Everyone could go to college! The result, of course, being rising tuition prices for worthless degrees, and people in debt for the rest of their lives. I know people with over 100K in debt for an aviation degree that is of no benefit in getting a job. Try paying that off with a $18,000 regional airline salary! They knew what they were getting themselves into.

    Someone, be it banks or universities, will always be there to take advantage of the poor decisions of idiots. Demanding that the 53% pay for their mistakes isn't going to get them anywhere.

    We have a liberal president who has spectacularly failed at everything he tried to do (With the exception of giving guns to the cartels). Demanding a more liberal government isn't going to fix things.

    I was laid off this summer. I had a better paying job in 14 days.
    I am the 53%.


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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?


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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    http://www.mediaite.com/online/trade...go-protesters/

    Quote Originally Posted by TFA
    In the middle of an Occupy Chicago teach-in this week, traders at the Chicago Board of Trade dumped several sheets of paper on top of the heads of protesters below. Demonstrators were angered to find out they were showered with employment applications for McDonald’s.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    There you have it, if you exercise your democratic rights, you're a greedy freeloader, for not being exploited and giving more free money to the 1%.
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    There you have it, if you exercise your democratic rights, you're a greedy freeloader, for not being exploited and giving more free money to the 1%.
    I'm really confused how you get that conclusion from the link.
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    Think it's a pretty easy conclusion.....anyone could draw it. It's the implication from the throwing of the applications....

    Greed is the root cause and it's in full effect. I recently spent 18 months out of work because the worlds largest law firm, who were giving a ridiculous number of partners over £1m a year in bonuses, decided to make hundreds redundant (and off shore to India) so they could save a few more quid....

    I guess getting £1,200,500 as a yearly bonus was definitely better then £1,200,000 per year....regardless of how many families they had to screw.
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    Think it's a pretty easy conclusion.....anyone could draw it. It's the implication from the throwing of the applications....
    I think the throwing of the applications is more jest than anything?
    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    Greed is the root cause and it's in full effect. I recently spent 18 months out of work because the worlds largest law firm, who were giving a ridiculous number of partners over £1m a year in bonuses, decided to make hundreds redundant (and off shore to India) so they could save a few more quid....

    I guess getting £1,200,500 as a yearly bonus was definitely better then £1,200,000 per year....regardless of how many families they had to screw.
    Depending on how you look at it, choosing the word greed instead of efficient slants things some what!

    If they are able to get someone to do the same job for less, then why on earth should they pay you more! Or is it simply a case of the jobs shouldn't be made in India, and everything should revolve around your life, not theirs?

    I don't understand why people endlessly bitch about jobs been outsourced, its fairer to those who are in recipt of the jobs, often due to cost savings more people get employed there, and as they are cheaper in the first place the money is probably going to have a bigger impact there too as its relatively higher.

    I can't help draw the conclusion that you feel you had a right to that, that it was somehow yours.... Odd!
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