Occupy Wall Street - What's their goal?

[TheAnimus]

You badly need to brush up on your history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_engine#History

Ok, firstly I assumed you ment electricty generation, not mass murder. The latter is something that I don't think we should be proud of, no matter how ground breaking it is.

Most fission as is made around the world now is due to innovation by the capitalist system, the greatly improved reactor designs that can't fall in to positive feedback etc are all entirely as a result of this. I'm not saying we have a completely un-governed capitalist system either, personally I think we always need a balance of research grants so that fields are not ignored because we don't understand how to make money from them, an example that springs to mind was Xerox's famous lab.

So the apollo program? What do you think the greatest outcome of that has been? For some reason the first one that pops in to my head is the smoke alarm or perhaps the microwave oven. Both owe their sucess and impact in our lifes due to capitalisim. Sure every now and again the fire department hand out 'free' ones, but its the efficency that is inherient in the capitalist system that has made them in appear in almost every home.

Then we go on to the jet engine, right now the most exciting development in it is the long fin fan blade designs. Again this is not a product of war, this is a market driven demand!

Yes? What about it? Wars encourage government spending which funded the research programmes to develop and apply new military technologies.

But at the same time as the apollo program was going on, those same government programs were spending money that they didn't have, what difference could that money have made to education or healthcare?

And where did I say a fascist society is ideal? Oh that's right, I didn't. It's more interesting that you swing between this false dichotomy of capitalism/{stalin,mao}ism.

You know nothing about Ho Chi Minh.

You talk about the idea of there been plenty of farm land to feed people, well capitalisim as we have it is still the best at doing that!

Somewhere like vietnam which wasn't a fascist (also I don't think of fascisim as a dirty word, its often wrongly asociated!) nation, but it did have a controlled farming pratice. People were not given the choice, they HAD to produce the rice to feed the nation. They didn't.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat the mistakes. Sure our system isn't perfect, it isn't fair, but its the best damned one we've ever implemented.

I would also love to actually see some suggestions on how to fix these things, rather than the assertions constantly that 'its broken'.

[BobF64]

Energy is a need, jet propulsion technology connected people together, as does the internet, the moon landings required several very important technologies which make meeting needs much easier to satisfy.

No, they have been made into needs.

Yes, lets go kill off all the poor people. That'll guarantee there'll never be poor people under capitalism again, right? Because it's all down to ability, not who commands the most wealth, right?

I didnt say we should kill them, at least not in the part you quoted, just that socialism does not reflect reality, but then capitalism does only reflect part of human nature.

However, its not a bad solution, no more benefit payouts, pensions etc, would leave lots more money and resources for the rest of us

[badass]

Blaming this current mess on capitalism is like blaming the holocaust on socialism.

The current system practised by the western world is simply not capitalism, despite most people against it proclaiming it so.
The system being capitalist became impossible as soon as governments started bailing out banks, however no country practiced capitalism for long before that.
The current system is like some screwed up socialism for those that have the most capital.
Perhaps a better name fir it is capital protectionism.

Had western society practised capitalism, the banking system would have collapsed and with it most of the western world as we know it. Things would probably be a lot worse now, but a lot better than they would have otherwise been in 30 years time.
Had governments and central banks instead of bailing out banks simply:
Guaranteed savings
Nationalise the public and business facing sides of any failed banks that did not get sold at auction.
Use this infrastructure to temporarily run a Nationalised bank that is always not quite competitive on loans and savings but of course your money is 100% guaranteed.
Block any purchases by surviving banks that would allow then to gain anything close to a monopoly.
Instead of using QE to buy bonds, simply spread it equally to each person that has paid more than £1000 in income tax over the past 3 years (before the Lehman collapse) or who has had been contributing any amount of income tax for at least 18 months of those 3 years. That would be appx £1000 per taxpayer and also appx £1000 per household. That would add money to the economy from the ground up instead of the top down.

Then we would probably have suffered a deeper recession but be better off by now and looking to a brighter future.

[Fnoop]

The 'Occupy Wall Street' movement disgusts me.

They are nothing more than a bunch of poorly educated hippies sitting in tents doing absolutely nothing useful because they are lazy and want everything handing to them on a plate.

Scum. I say we fetch the water cannons. The spineless idiots will soon disperse.

[aidanjt]

The 'Occupy Wall Street' movement disgusts me.

They are nothing more than a bunch of poorly educated hippies sitting in tents doing absolutely nothing useful because they are lazy and want everything handing to them on a plate.

Scum. I say we fetch the water cannons. The spineless idiots will soon disperse.

What are you doing about the current economic dysfunction besides moaning about people standing up for themselves?

[Fnoop]

What are you doing about the current economic dysfunction besides moaning about people standing up for themselves?

Working, because I'm not a scrounging tool.

[aidanjt]

Working, because I'm not a scrounging tool.

That doesn't fix a broken system.

[TheAnimus]

What are you doing about the current economic dysfunction besides moaning about people standing up for themselves?

Probably out there generating wealth, been productive....

There are those who moan and those who own. Plenty of people end up in the latter not via birthright but by work. Then there are those who have everything handed to them on a platter and claim that they were forced to starve and become malnurished thanks to state failure. Obviously their decision making process was flawless.

[Fnoop]

That doesn't fix a broken system.

The only problem with the system is that people are too dumb to be able to 'use' it properly.

Or too lazy.

[aidanjt]

The only problem with the system is that people are too dumb to be able to 'use' it properly.

Then you must have missed the whole 'recession' business. Teach yourself.

[TheAnimus]

Then you must have missed the whole 'recession' business. Teach yourself.

Tell that to Australia, India or Vietnam.

You keep saying the system is broken, but I don't think it really is, it allows indevidual choice, and that too often is the problem.

In the same way that with democracy we will likely see Labour voted back in because so many hate the osterity package, which is a direct need of Labours miss management.

That does not mean there is a problem with democracy, only the memory, goals or education of the voters.

[aidanjt]

You keep saying the system is broken, but I don't think it really is

I keep saying it because it is broken by definition:

Having been fractured or damaged and no longer in one piece or in working order
- a broken arm

Rejected, defeated, or despairing
- he went to his grave a broken man
- a broken heart

Sick or weakened
- broken health

(of a relationship) Ended, typically by betrayal or faithlessness
- a broken marriage

Disrupted or divided
- broken families

(of an agreement or promise) Not observed by one of the parties involved

Having gaps or intervals that break a continuity
- a broken white line across the road

Having an uneven and rough surface
- broken ground

it allows indevidual choice, and that too often is the problem.

Less is the problem of individual choice, and more the problem of systematic theft, collusion, and corruption.

In the same way that with democracy we will likely see Labour voted back in because so many hate the osterity package, which is a direct need of Labours miss management.

That does not mean there is a problem with democracy, only the memory, goals or education of the voters.

Representative democracy is broken, it depends on the decisions of corrupt bureaucrats, who, in their concentrated form are much easier to manipulate by interested external parties, whether those decisions actually reflect the will of the people or not is irrelevant to a rep. democracy.

[TheAnimus]

I keep saying it because it is broken by definition:

So you put in the defintion of broken, which one exactly? Were here, no one in the 'recession hit nations*' is starving, we've got a cushy life style, and were it not for the extravagance of the last 15 years we'd be where Germany is. Or are you saying Germany is broken?

*ok so technically we're long shot of a recession, but I'm being dramatic.

Less is the problem of individual choice, and more the problem of systematic theft, collusion, and corruption.

Indeed, so lets look at working on those. Your throwing the baby out with the bath water here. If you look at most 'designed' economies, China Russia etc they had far larger issues with all of those than you do in a 'free' economy.

Representative democracy is broken, it depends on the decisions of corrupt bureaucrats, who, in their concentrated form are much easier to manipulate by interested external parties, whether those decisions actually reflect the will of the people or not is irrelevant to a rep. democracy.

But surely that is only because the people are voting for their representatives so. Simulated Annealing is an interesting technique for optomisation, because it can converge errouniously does not make is broken.

[Zak33]

Scum. I say we fetch the water cannons.

bit strong.. pls don't use such words in aggression for what is in essence, a peaceful protest.

In comedy it works....and in the harshness of other worse things....

but in this context that is far from being in the spirit of "HEXUS Question Time."

[BobF64]

Representative democracy is broken, it depends on the decisions of corrupt bureaucrats, who, in their concentrated form are much easier to manipulate by interested external parties, whether those decisions actually reflect the will of the people or not is irrelevant to a rep. democracy.

So true, it's why I prefer the term "Tyranny by Majority", it's far closer to the truth after all.

[Fnoop]

I feel sorry for some of you. Your 'stick it to the man' attitude born of watching nutters on Youtube instead of trusting the intelligent people that lead our various nations.

Embarrassing to say the least.