Muslim Girl Loses Case To Wear Special Dress At School.

[malfunction]

It's a difficult one this - TBH I can easily see both sides of the argument - on one hand she is just one girl with what is essentially a whim when you look at the surface of this but if she truly believes she should be covered head to toe for religous reasons then it is oppressive to make her do otherwise... OK it's not living in a war zone oppressive... It's not like she's trying to be 'trendy' either - if 80% of the school are muslim then as the only one to make an issue out of this she is probably shunned by the majority of the other muslim kids too... It's VERY easy to imagine that all of this is coming from her parents as well but I think that's what Rave was alluding to - shoving any belief down your kids throat really isn't helping anyone - I'm not saying all religon is bad but it's very easy to give bad examples

Then there's the general social issue - which I think is where most people worry - I personally don't like either extreme - that any community and their values can be disregarded or allowed to dictate simply because the government is too afraid of seeming racist / weak / whatever...

[G4Z]

well, I agree with Rave on that one, Kids shouldnt be "taught" religion imho. Its basicaly just brainwashing, ignoring everything we have learnt through science to push daft ideas like the earth being made in 7 days... crazy. If you dont push a child into a religion Id lay money on them growing up, looking at it objectively and just saying "naaaa, there all wrong arent they!". I was never pushed into any religions and thats how I grew up and I think we would live in a much better world if thats how everyone grew up.

Also, I think its about time we stopped the compulsary morning prayers in school, we live in a seccular state these days and this kind of thing has no place in education (seeing as education shouldnt be about teaching half truths). I therefore also belive the high court was right, we have uniforms and I think everybody should stick to them. No special treatment for religious minorities.

I just got up, so im not sure I stated my case very well there....

[Swafe]

Rules are rules, and she knew them when she joined the school. Simple as.

You have a right to an education, but not to choose where you have it.

i agree here, rules are rules and she should follow them

it really annoys me, its an english speaking country and when people come in and just dont bother learning english, they use their own language to talk to their family and dont socialise elsewhere

thats understandable to a degree they dont want to change, but if they want to live in our country i feel that they should live our way, i dont want a martket holder talking about me in arabic as i walk thru the market to his mates, same as when your say in spain on a holiday, they despise tourists speaking in english saying corr that spanish birds a bit of alrite, as they cant understand us

yeah well i hoped that made sense, i dont think it did as ive only just woke up, hope u get my idea tho

[nichomach]

well, I agree with Rave on that one, Kids shouldnt be "taught" religion imho. Its basicaly just brainwashing, ignoring everything we have learnt through science to push daft ideas like the earth being made in 7 days... crazy. If you dont push a child into a religion Id lay money on them growing up, looking at it objectively and just saying "naaaa, there all wrong arent they!". I was never pushed into any religions and thats how I grew up and I think we would live in a much better world if thats how everyone grew up.

Well, I was never pushed into a religion and didn't become a Christian until I was 29, so I think you'd lose your bet. You're also assuming that any child who receives a Christian upbringing is going to be raised by frothing-at-the-mouth fundamentalists, which is an assumption all too easy to make if you don't know many Christians. I certainly don't ignore science, or denigrate it, and I wouldn't teach my child to either.

Also, I think its about time we stopped the compulsary morning prayers in school, we live in a seccular state these days and this kind of thing has no place in education (seeing as education shouldnt be about teaching half truths). I therefore also belive the high court was right, we have uniforms and I think everybody should stick to them. No special treatment for religious minorities.

I just got up, so im not sure I stated my case very well there....

Technically we don't live in a secular state as there is an established church, although I personally have no problem with the idea of disestablishing the Church of England. I don't believe that prayers should be compulsory for children, but I do certainly believe that given the importance of faith to billions of the world's populations, then there should be some coverage of it in the school syllabus. Note, I don't say that any one religion should be covered, but I think that understanding of and respect for others' beliefs is an essential part of education.

As far as raising my child in a Christian fashion I see that as no worse than the number of people here who shove atheism down peoples' throats and expect them to like it. It seems to me that anyone who speaks from a Christian perspective on these boards is vilified and insulted merely for stating what they believe, whereas anyone who proclaims atheism loudly is allowed to be as insulting as they please towards people of faith and thats OK.

As far as this particular girl is concerned, had the school adopted a bit of flexibility and understanding then this case need never have been brought. As I said, the judgement is probably legally correct, I just think that it's a shame that someone who merely wants to follow their faith in what they believe to be the best fashion, without harming anyone else, should not only be prevented from doing so, but should be vilified here and in other places.

[Shogun]

"had the school adopted a bit of flexibility and understanding then this case need never have been brought."

The school had already been flexible but introducing a seperate uniform for muslims. People will just ask for more and more.

[nichomach]

And exactly who would have been harmed by allowing this one girl to follow what she feels her faith requires?

[Shogun]

As said already the other muslim girls in the school would feel under pressure to wear the same thing. A uniform is there for one reason, to make people uniform so therefore equal to each other. If people just decide to not wear it for "religous" reasons then why have one in the first place?

[G4Z]

nichomach, I was not trying to say that religion shouldnt be covered in the school syllabus. Just that I dont agree with the prayers and bible readings in assemblys. I decided at a fairly early age that I didnt belive any of this stuff and I allways hated being made to stand up and pray (although I refused to actualy say the words). I do understand a bit about the various religions thanks to my edcuation at school so I really wouldnt want to see it ignored as I think that would breed ignorance.

I would be interested in knowing what you belived in up until you were 29 and what event made you change you mind and turn to religion? (its probably a bit off topic tho...)

[Swafe]

my religion is to wear trainers- i hated school shoes cos they hurt my feet, and now ive left i wear trainers relogiously, nothing else

they wouldnt let me, so why let them?

[Stewart]

As far as this particular girl is concerned, had the school adopted a bit of flexibility and understanding then this case need never have been brought.

Or indeed, had the girl and her parents adopted a little bit of flexability, this case need never have been brought. The school, as Shogun quite correctly points out, had already introduced a uniform for Muslim girls, one which, up until this point, was deemed perfectly suitable dress for the other Muslim women in the school.

Had the parents of the girl accepted this, and realised that you can't just demand special treatment because you are a member of an ethnic or religious minority, then the case would never have reached the High Court. (Not that I can believe it ever reached the High Court in the first place. Sheer madness)

You don't consider a seperate uniform for Muslims, one which was in use by all all Muslim women in the school, as a sign that the school was flexable? What do you expect? They have to bend over backwards because she's a Muslim?

[Swafe]

i reckon they would bend over backwards as she is muslim now the press have hold of it to prove their not racist or what not - even thought they shouldnt at all

it seems 'special' people get more benefits than us, which is unfair on our part, take example my old school - in my form there were 3 deaf kids

so what did they get? well they got a signer, who basically told them what the teacher was saying in sign language - which accepted is fine. what i didnt find fine was the amount of things they got , which we didnt such as trips, in my entire school liufe of 5 years i was offered 2 trips, as was the rest of the kids however from what i counted they got 10, if not more school paid trips. on top of that they were saw as higher than everyone else, by that i mean even tho the smart and sensible people because prefects, they did too. understandable if they were good students, but they used to **** about more than i did yet they got to be one, and i didnt.

they also got more benfits, such as first dibs on everything, free dinner in the canteen, free taxis home, where we had to make our own way home, literally everything we had they had better, and why? because there deaf? sure it makes them special and somethings, like a signer, and like more involvement in things that they cant appreciate like we can, but they really took the pee, they got literally everything we never got, which was raving as they cut us out, and gave it to them when really it should have all been split evenly.


so what do i think ? just because the school was scared of people saying there harsh, or whatever towards the deaf kids they made sure their life was a luxuary to make sure that they didnt, but when they sacrificed other people for them i dont think its right, they may be deaf, and cant be looked down on , i just think they should be equals

same sorta goes for this, no one else is allowed any special uniform - if muslims already have their own special uniform for school i think thats good enuff, but to demand more isnt right



damn that was a rant....sorry just went off revision is driving me crazy

[Rave]

Or indeed, had the girl and her parents adopted a little bit of flexability, this case need never have been brought. The school, as Shogun quite correctly points out, had already introduced a uniform for Muslim girls, one which, up until this point, was deemed perfectly suitable dress for the other Muslim women in the school

Deemed by who? The girl herself clearly didnt deem it acceptable did she?

Had the parents of the girl accepted this, and realised that you can't just demand special treatment because you are a member of an ethnic or religious minority,

How exactly is she demanding 'special treatment'? In fact she's demanding that she be allowed to wear the clothes she thinks are appropriate; the school doesn't have to do anything other than allow her to. You're whining on about the cost of taking this to the high court, how much would it have cost the school to simply say 'O.K. fine, wear what you like'?

You don't consider a seperate uniform for Muslims, one which was in use by all all Muslim women in the school, as a sign that the school was flexable? What do you expect? They have to bend over backwards because she's a Muslim?

Yeah, well that again is actually discrimination. The Islamic faith has many seperate sects who believe different things, just as Christianity has Anglicans, Methodists, Catholics etc. Saying that one mode of dress has to be acceptable to all muslims is ridiculously simplistic and insulting. It's like saying that all black people should be happy wearing dreadlocks and string vests.

Rich :¬)

[Shogun]

Rave people can never cater for everyone. Who would you rather cater for, 1 person or all of the rest of the muslim girls at that school?

[Stewart]

Deemed by who? The girl herself clearly didnt deem it acceptable did she?

Looks like she'll have to bite the bullet, and accept it then, doesn't it? The school thought it was Ok, the rest of the Muslim's girls in the school thought it was Ok, the High Court thought it was Ok, I think its Ok, a lot of people in this thread think its Ok.

What are you suggesting? Simply give her what she wants, regardless of the rules? That would be a ludicrous thing to do, and completely unworkable in the long run, if you look beyond this case.

How exactly is she demanding 'special treatment'? In fact she's demanding that she be allowed to wear the clothes she thinks are appropriate; the school doesn't have to do anything other than allow her to. You're whining on about the cost of taking this to the high court, how much would it have cost the school to simply say 'O.K. fine, wear what you like'?

To answer your points one by one:

She is demanding special treament because she was demanding to wear non-standard school dress. Allowing her to do so would be granting her special treatment on the grounds of her religious beliefs. A special uniform for Muslims already addresses this situation, so there are no grounds for a further uniform for Muslim girls at the school.

As for the 'whining' (or to use a better phrase 'raising of the issue' or simply 'discussing') about the cost of the High Court and your comment 'how much would it have cost the school to simply say 'O.K. fine, wear what you like'?; conversely, how much would it have cost for the girl or her parents to simply say 'Ok, we will respect the rules of the school as they stand, and wear the same dress as the rest of the Muslim women in the school'?

Why should the school back down? The High Court has ruled that they were right not to, so surely, they are 100% correct on this issue? Had they been incorrect, the High Court would have ruled against them. Yes?

Yeah, well that again is actually discrimination. The Islamic faith has many seperate sects who believe different things, just as Christianity has Anglicans, Methodists, Catholics etc. Saying that one mode of dress has to be acceptable to all muslims is ridiculously simplistic and insulting. It's like saying that all black people should be happy wearing dreadlocks and string vests.

Not really. The school has a Muslim dress code, it is acceptable by all, and has been in use without problems. The High Court has ruled that this isn't discrimination, so therefore, your claims that it is are simply incorrect.

As a finaly point Rave, in a discussion like this, can you stop posting with angry face and ranting smilies after everything you say? If you can't post without frothing at the mouth, then wait until you've calmed down a tad. We are simply discussing the issue, now that the High Court has ruled, you should be able to join in that discussion and put your points across, without flying off the handle.

[Rave]

What are you suggesting? Simply give her what she wants, regardless of the rules? That would be a ludicrous thing to do, and completely unworkable in the long run, if you look beyond this case.

How? How exactly would kids wearing burqas (sp?) or Jedi style robes to school disrupt the educational system? I'd like specifics here please.

She is demanding special treament because she was demanding to wear non-standard school dress. Allowing her to do so would be granting her special treatment on the grounds of her religious beliefs.

Right, and granting people special rights because of their religious beliefs is actually an established principle in the law of this country. Sikhs are allowed to ride motorcycles without wearing a helmet, is that not special treatment on the grounds of religion?

A special uniform for Muslims already addresses this situation, so there are no grounds for a further uniform for Muslim girls at the school.

Well, as I say lumping all Muslims together into one category is meaningless and insulting. People in Northern Ireland have been murdering each other for decades essentially because of the differences between their sects of the Christian faith. Similarly Islam has wide schisms between its different sects and there can be no solution that's acceptable to them all.

As for the 'whining' (or to use a better phrase 'raising of the issue' or simply 'discussing') about the cost of the High Court and your comment 'how much would it have cost the school to simply say 'O.K. fine, wear what you like'?; conversely, how much would it have cost for the girl or her parents to simply say 'Ok, we will respect the rules of the school as they stand, and wear the same dress as the rest of the Muslim women in the school'?

Yeah, but then maybe nobody should ever complain about anything or stand up for any right ever? This is a free country. I object to being told what to do when it clearly doesn't affect anybody else, and consequently I have complete sympathy with this girl.

Why should the school back down? The High Court has ruled that they were right not to, so surely, they are 100% correct on this issue? Had they been incorrect, the High Court would have ruled against them. Yes?

To be a high court judge you first have to be a barrister if I understand it correctly. To be a barrister you first have to join an Inn and dine 24 times at court. The legal system in this country is ridiculously backward and is frankly a disgrace. The sooner the whole rotten edifice is pulled apart the better. I have pretty much zero faith in this country's legal system. Still, it's better than having nothing at all, as I've already said.

Not really. The school has a Muslim dress code, it is acceptable by all,

It's not acceptable to this girl. That's the point.

and has been in use without problems. The High Court has ruled that this isn't discrimination, so therefore, your claims that it is are simply incorrect.

Um....no? The high court as I said is drastically backward and anachronistic. When this has gone to the European Court of Human Rights, maybe I'll accept their decision.

As a finaly point Rave, in a discussion like this, can you stop posting with angry face and ranting smilies after everything you say? If you can't post without frothing at the mouth, then wait until you've calmed down a tad. We are simply discussing the issue, now that the High Court has ruled, you should be able to join in that discussion and put your points across, without flying off the handle.

Well, I'm very angry. Seriously, why have the smilies there if I'm not supposed to use them?

Rich :¬)

[nichomach]

Rave people can never cater for everyone. Who would you rather cater for, 1 person or all of the rest of the muslim girls at that school?

Or, given that there are no financial implications for the school, why not cater to both? Exactly what would it cost the school to say "OK, if you wish to wear the jilbab, you wear it in the school colours, and with a school badge (if appropriate)."?

As to this idea that somehow her choosing one mode of traditional dress places pressure on other girls, well, for one, the girls in question are probably pretty used to seeing women wearing the jilbab, and are probably also used to the idea that they don't have to. So where's the problem?