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Thread: Muslim Girl Loses Case To Wear Special Dress At School.

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    Muslim Girl Loses Case To Wear Special Dress At School.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3808073.stm

    The case of the Muslim girl who demanded to be allowed to wear what she deemed appropriate, rather than what the school did. Some how, this case managed to reach the High Court, and, at last, common sense has prevailed, and the case been thrown out.

    Here's what those friendly Islamic nutters over at 'Al-Muhajiroun' had to say (and yes, I realise that anyone with half a brain cell ignores these cretins every bit as much as they do the BNP, but just out of interest)

    "The journey that the Muslim sister has embarked upon by insisting on implementing Islam in her life (with regard to the veil) is bound to be a hard and extremely difficult one at times, but this is part of the test to see who will stay the course and finish this life as a Muslim, a test to find out who the real Muslims are and who the hypocrites are and a test to see who will sell his/her Deen for any part of the Dunya that is offered to them.

    The short term solution in this case must be to have segregated independent Islamic schools teaching all subjects from an Islamic perspective, although the long term solution (as we must all know, understand and strive to achieve) is for the Shari'ah to be implemented both on an individual level and on State level: for all the laws to be based upon the Shari’ah and the total eradication thereby of any man made law or, to coin a phrase, to see the flag of Islam flying over 10 Downing Street!
    "

    Lovely people aren't they? How silly of us not to realise that of course we should all bow down to the teachings of Islam, realise that nothing else matters, let this girl wear whatshe wants, and fly the flag of Islam from number 10. Still, as long as they have sensible, well thought out policies, I'm sure they will soon become a credable and well respected group.

    Anyway, that's what the extremeists thought, now lets try to gather a few rather more balanced views from the wonderful world of the Hexus Question Time forum.

    Was the Court right to rule against this woman, or not?

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    Cable Guy Jonny M's Avatar
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    Rules are rules, and she knew them when she joined the school. Simple as.

    You have a right to an education, but not to choose where you have it.

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    As Cage said rules are rules, the whole idea with uniform is that everyones an equal and nobody should stand out in a crowd. School uniform is designed for several reasons - so people can spot someone from a certain school if they are somewhere that they shouldn't be and to prevent victimisation or persicution of indivuals.
    In all honesty I dont think she has helped peoples feelings about religions in this country, people always resent it when someone gets special treatment above others and that resentment can turn into bullying or worse.
    As far as I understood it the school did have a uniform that was accepted by her religion anyway and she just wanted to choose a different one?

    Personaly I wonder whether she was doing this for some other reason, seeing how shes know borked her education, maybe the fame or money..

    What will she do if she decides to become a Policeman, or a Fireman or even a Nurse.

    There's some twit that was in the local paper a couple of weeks ago who had to sit his exams in a special room because he turned up in a skirt claiming that is was perfectly acceptable for a man to wear a skirt in this day and age, which is fair enough but he was doing it for the attention especaily during exams, if he felt that way why hadn't he done it before. The teachers rightly felt that it would cause a distration.
    He looked a right rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish which is his right too .

    (sorry about the spelling havent reinstalled word yet )

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    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul
    "[i]The journey that the Muslim sister has embarked upon by insisting on implementing Islam in her life (with regard to the veil) is bound to be a hard and extremely difficult one at times, but this is part of the test to see who will stay the course and finish this life as a Muslim, a test to find out who the real Muslims are and who the hypocrites are and a test to see who will sell his/her Deen for any part of the Dunya that is offered to them.
    sounds like an awful lot of trouble just to be a muslim? doesnt it?
    why cant they just wear what we wear in school while there living in this country, were it is traditional to wear uniform, ties etc, then when we go to there country i wont mind wearing the uniform whatever that may be if there wearing it (if they let us that is! we not proper muslims obviously)

    this would also stop bullying, because everyone would blend in and bullies woudnt have much to get at

    still it was kinda harsh of the school not letting her wear it if she and her family feels it is extremly neccesary

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    Senior Member RVF500's Avatar
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    If they want to be that segregated why don't they simply migrate to a state where such strict Islamic values are the norm? As far as I recall this is a free country where people can come or go pretty much as they please.

    Or would that mean leaving behind a nice cushy life in the UK with a tolerant society that let's them print whatever they like without recourse and good social benefits? But then, the benefit of being able to die a 'true' muslim would be compensation enough for a harsher existance..........wouldn't it?
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    Spider pig, spider pig
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    The school is totally right on this one I think. Much as I think she may well have been genuine in her reasons for wanting to wear different clothing from everyone else (though I bet her parents had no small say in this), think of the precedent it would set. People could claim to be members of any weird religion, with its own clothing which you 'have to' wear. I mean, imagine someone coming to school dressed up as Luke Skywalker and claiming to be a Jedi!

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    Time for Walkies... Atomic's Avatar
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    Originally, Shabina wore a shalwar kameez to school, but her deepening interest in her religion led to her wearing the jilbab.

    The long gown is worn by some Muslim women who seek to cover their arms and legs, but not faces or hands.
    "cover their arms and legs" - jumper/sleeved shirt & long skirt?

    But the school argued an alternative uniform option for Muslim girls was on offer
    That's more than most schools offer!

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    Will work for beer... nichomach's Avatar
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    The school in question allows a tunic and trousers; some Muslims deem this immodest, and the girl in question wanted to wear a full length robe (jilbab) and headscarf (hijab). She was NOT proposing to go about fully veiled.

    Tying this girl in with Al-Muhajiroun is not particularly helpful or sensible; there is no suggestion that she is anything other than a devout Muslim. It was entirely predictable that they would say something like that, but it's really not germane to the issue. As to the school uniform (and other uniforms for that matter), if the Metropolitan Police can come up with a uniform hijab which clearly fits in with uniform requirements, then surely it's not beyond the wit of man for the school to have compromised, say by requiring the wearing of a school badge on the jilbab. Apparently too simple an idea for them. Frankly, the judge was probably legally right to rule as he did, but I think the school was wrong not to at least try to compromise on the uniform issue. They raised a completely bogus health and safety argument (I serve at church with priests who wear full length robes and they don't trip over, I see women around the streets wearing the jilbab and they can manage not to fall over, so I think the school's objections on H&S grounds were specious). I think the school should have required her to wear a uniform emblem, like a badge, and let her wear the jilbab.

    Abdul Bari, deputy leader of the Muslim Council of Britain said the High Court's "landmark decision" was "very worrying and objectionable". "The British Muslim community is a diverse community in terms of the interpretation and understanding of their faith and its practice," said Dr Bari. "Within this broad spectrum those that believe and choose to wear the jilbab and consider it to be part of their faith requirement for modest attire should be respected.
    Seems pretty unobjectionable to me.

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    Time for Walkies... Atomic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nichomach
    They raised a completely bogus health and safety argument (I serve at church with priests who wear full length robes and they don't trip over, I see women around the streets wearing the jilbab and they can manage not to fall over, so I think the school's objections on H&S grounds were specious).
    H&S legislation isn't just about tripping over. Trust me its way more complex than that!

    Also the muslim women & priests you mention dont go into science labs or tech rooms. If she can prove that the jilbab is fire/chemical/etc. retartant and isn't loose fitting enough that it could get caught in a lathe/saw/tool that would be a different matter...

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    Nich - No suggestion that I was trying to 'tie in' this girl and her case with Al-Mujarathingy, I hope? I was simply giving to reaction of these extremists, to show why a more balanced response is needed.

    I even said that no-one with a brain cell would listen to these nutters, and it obvious that they are simply trying to use this case to get their own views more widely known. There was no attempt to 'tie in' the girl and these Islamic Extremists. It was a sensible thing to do though - highlight the extremists view, so we can dismiss it, and offer our own, hopefully more balanced, views.

    At the end of the day, she knew the rules. Also, would it be very 'BNP voter! Racist! Fascist scum! Hitler!' of me to suggest that if she were not a Muslim, this issue wouldn't have got much further than the Headmasters office. How did this get to the High Court?

    I'm just surprised we haven't had a flood of Guardian readers shouting 'Islamophobia' at various people, and claiming that our justice system is institutionally racist.

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    Hexus.Jet TeePee's Avatar
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    I think the Muslin religion has much to learn about equality (admittedly modern religion's descrimination against women originates from the Catholic church), and so it's not inappropriate for a school to try to educate its pupils, both male and female, about equality. And the first way of showing that everyone is equal, is by having everyone dress alike.

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    But it’s not even that though, as the school already had a different uniform for Muslims to wear, she wanted a uniform specifically for her to wear, one which she thought was appropriate, and when the school refused, somehow the case ended up in the High Court!

    Do we really need to the High Court to tell a Muslim girl she can't wear what she likes? To be honest, I think it says more about the attitude of this woman than it does anything else. Why can't she except that this country is not run for her, and she, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Atheist or Alien will respect and abide by the rules and laws of this country and its various institutions?

    Break our laws, and you will be punished. Attend our schools, and you wear the uniforms that the school has said is acceptable for Muslim's to wear. Surly the way forward is to ignore groups like Al-Muhajiroun, banging on about Muslim only this, and Muslim only that, and integrate rather than segregate?

    You do this by treating everyone as equals, giving no-one special treatment, but whilst respecting other's religious beliefs. Due respect was given to this woman and her religious beliefs, she was allowed to wear a perfectly adequate uniform, and yet, somehow, the case ends up in the High Court.

    On what grounds exactly is she expecting special treatment? Because she is a Muslim? This isn't a Muslim country, which is an issue, as I'm sure she'd be able to wear any style of Muslim dress she likes, in, for instance Iran. The school has a Muslim uniform, they should not (and thanks to this ruling will not) have to pander to individuals from minority (or majority) groups, expecting special treatment on the basis of their religious beliefs.

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    Senior Member RVF500's Avatar
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    We are talking about a 15 year old girl here. I doubt that she had the wit or will to chase this all the way to the high court on her own. So somewhere along the line her case seems to have been hijacked by a third party to promote a cause. It seems that someone was quite happy to exploit this girl for their own ends. Dressing it up as a legal battle merely masked it. Just how much has this case cost the public simply to tell a young girl what is and is not acceptable wear at this school? As vaul pointed out. If this had not been a case built on religious grounds it wouldn't have got past the head teacher's office. Nor should it have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul
    they should not (and thanks to this ruling will not) have to pander to individuals from minority (or majority) groups, expecting special treatment on the basis of their religious beliefs.
    Hit the nail on the head there. It only becomes an issue if Christian children(who are the majority) are given permission to wear overtly religious symbols themselves. As no such inequality exists then I would have to agree that the girl doesn't really have a case.
    And I am a Guardian reader Vaul
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    Now with added sobriety Rave's Avatar
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    Well, I disagree with the ruling, but it raises an interesting point for me, which I'll get to in the next paragraph. As far as I'm concerned, people, including school children, should be entitled to wear what they want, when they want. I should be allowed to turn up to work in a miniskirt, Tony Blair should be able to take Prime Minister's questions dressed as Seven Of Nine, etc. etc. I hope the kid who was sent to a seperate room for wearing a dress sues, because he's got every right to wear a dress as far as I'm concerned. Would the staff have sent a girl with hairy legs to another room for wearing a dress? I doubt it. Consequently it's blatant and totally unacceptable discrimination.

    The reason I can see some sense in the ruling is that I believe that children should not be subjected to religious influences. I think taking children to churches, mosques, temples etc. is wrong and should not be allowed; neither should they be subjected to ceremonies like christenings, confirmations, bar mitzvahs or <winces and crosses legs> circumcisions. I believe that it should be up to young people to make up their own minds about whether they are religious and, if so, what religion is right for them. I don't believe that children are old enough to start thinking about that until they're at least 12. This particular girl is 15 and apparently a devout Muslim- well, fair enough I suppose, I guess she's old enough to know what she wants now. I do believe that a ban on religious observances of any kind for younger children is right and should be implemented. Instead we still have an archaic and frankly disgusting legal requirement that all state school in this country carry out a daily act of collective worship that is mainly Christian in character.

    Finally, those moaning that this case is a waste of taxpayers money should count their damned blessings. We in this country have a right to challenge decisions which we think infringe the law or our human rights in court. That's not a waste of money, it's a fundamental necessity for any country that considers itself a democracy. The day that laws and public bodies can't be subject to legal challenge is the day we become a dictatorship.

    Rich :¬)

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    Spider pig, spider pig
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rave
    The reason I can see some sense in the ruling is that I believe that children should not be subjected to religious influences. I think taking children to churches, mosques, temples etc. is wrong and should not be allowed; neither should they be subjected to ceremonies like christenings, confirmations, bar mitzvahs or <winces and crosses legs> circumcisions. I believe that it should be up to young people to make up their own minds about whether they are religious and, if so, what religion is right for them. I don't believe that children are old enough to start thinking about that until they're at least 12. This particular girl is 15 and apparently a devout Muslim- well, fair enough I suppose, I guess she's old enough to know what she wants now. I do believe that a ban on religious observances of any kind for younger children is right and should be implemented. Instead we still have an archaic and frankly disgusting legal requirement that all state school in this country carry out a daily act of collective worship that is mainly Christian in character.
    Whoah! Take a step back here for a minute. Firstly, look at motivations purely objectively for religious parents to take their kids to mosque, church, temple or whatever. Religious people tend to believe that their religion is THE truth, rather than a truth. If thats the case, then why is it so wrong for them to expose their children to it? Not only this, but it also helps build family relationships, as well as relationships with others in the community.

    As far as I can see there is no disadvantage to it, and if kids grow up and decide that religion is not the way of life they feel comfortable with, then thats their choice. Once religion is forced upon a child, then it is of course a completely different matter, this is violating their rights, but purely showing a child what you believe wholeheatedly to be the truth is fine, as far as Im concerned. This is of course coming from a christian POV, but I think the same holds true for muslims, jews, and anyone else.

    Its easy to look at religion as 'wrong' and theirfore influencing people in religious ways is wrong, but looking at both sides of the argument can help.

    More to the point though, if this girl is sincere in her faith, and really believes that this makes a difference, then I commend her for standing up for what she believes in, even if it does seem silly to everyone else. I just think that the ruling was correct, in that a setting precedents like this would open the floodgates to sillier and less genuine but similar complaints.

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