Organ Donation

[G4Z]

Lynni, it looks like we finally agree on somthing, I would say that an opt out model has to be best because, if you feel that strongly about it you can opt out. There is no reason this cant be a simple process done when you first apply for a passport or somthing, I would say that as far as organ donation from kids I would have to say its not practical to have an opt out model here because kids are not developed enough to make an informed decision. Maybe that should be up to the parents.

[fondie]

but i want to be cryogenically frozen

[G4Z]

well, when you fill in the forms for cryogenic suspension you can also opt out of organ donation whilst your on eh?

[lynni]

Lynni, it looks like we finally agree on somthing

cool glad to hear it

We was talking about this at work this afternoon, cos im working on an ITU unit.... ive been there nearly 7 weeks now and we havent had one brain stem dead patient who we have been able to take organs from, and this unit is the largest in the country. (theres been a couple but for various reasons wernt suitable for donation).

Apparently they dont have any for months and then have five in a week, you then have to try and convince those five families to agree to organ donation and then there is a possibility of only two sets agreeing.

But aside from that, one thing that a nurse said this afternoon was 'its ok having this opt-out register but supposeing your not registered for whatever reason? we then have the job of telling an already devastated family that were going to take their relative to peices and they dont get a choice in what happens because that person wasnt on the register' Although i agree to organ donation, and being in the thick of it i can see the need.... but i tell ya would like to see tony blair sitting down in an interview room and facing relatives with that explanation

[fondie]

well, when you fill in the forms for cryogenic suspension you can also opt out of organ donation whilst your on eh?

if they had that option on the same form then that's ok (by me, as regard to my own body and organs), i don't want to fill out any more forms than is absolutely necessary though.

[Rave]

But aside from that, one thing that a nurse said this afternoon was 'its ok having this opt-out register but supposeing your not registered for whatever reason? we then have the job of telling an already devastated family that were going to take their relative to peices and they dont get a choice in what happens because that person wasnt on the register' Although i agree to organ donation, and being in the thick of it i can see the need.... but i tell ya would like to see tony blair sitting down in an interview room and facing relatives with that explanation

I'd be prepared to do that TBH. It's fair enough as far as I'm concerned. Legally my parents, family etc. lost the right to decide what happens to me when I turned 18. My parents would most certainly be in favour of donating my organs luckily, but it's not their decision in any case. I married my wife as an equal; it's not her decision either. It's mine, and mine alone, and I've been on the organ donor register since before I turned 16, when I applied for my provisional moped licence.

If you're going to have an opt-out system, then it's incumbent on the government to make sure that everyone has a fair chance to opt-out. If the government has made sure that 99.9% of the population knows how the new system works (which must be possible if you take out enough adverts etc.) then any relatives who don't agree with donations are, frankly, out of luck if their relatives haven't opted out. I'm not advocating any sneakyness here; it should be easy peasy to opt out of you want to. If you're too lazy to fill in an easy form or make a phone call, then tough.

Rich :¬)

[lynni]

I'd be prepared to do that TBH. It's fair enough as far as I'm concerned. Legally my parents, family etc. lost the right to decide what happens to me when I turned 18. My parents would most certainly be in favour of donating my organs luckily, but it's not their decision in any case. I married my wife as an equal; it's not her decision either. It's mine, and mine alone, and I've been on the organ donor register since before I turned 16, when I applied for my provisional moped licence.

If you're going to have an opt-out system, then it's incumbent on the government to make sure that everyone has a fair chance to opt-out. If the government has made sure that 99.9% of the population knows how the new system works (which must be possible if you take out enough adverts etc.) then any relatives who don't agree with donations are, frankly, out of luck if their relatives haven't opted out. I'm not advocating any sneakyness here; it should be easy peasy to opt out of you want to. If you're too lazy to fill in an easy form or make a phone call, then tough.

Rich :¬)

Thats easy to say when you arent the one facing them, relatives have enough to deal with when they lose a loved one but to be then told 'were taking their organs and its tough s*** if u dont agree' is quite a task and i would imagine to be quite traumatic for everyone involved

[G4Z]

I can see where your coming from, but I have to agree with Rave, If they make it very easy to opt-out (for example when your admitted to hospital) and they make it all very open and obvious then I cannot see why anybody who lives in this country (because as far as I can see tourists or people very very new are likely to be the only ones caught out) should have a problem with it.

Lynni on the flip side of it, how many families are likely to benefit form a policy like this and wont have to be told that there is no way they can find an organ for their family member.

[lynni]

I can see where your coming from, but I have to agree with Rave, If they make it very easy to opt-out (for example when your admitted to hospital) and they make it all very open and obvious then I cannot see why anybody who lives in this country (because as far as I can see tourists or people very very new are likely to be the only ones caught out) should have a problem with it.

Lynni on the flip side of it, how many families are likely to benefit form a policy like this and wont have to be told that there is no way they can find an organ for their family member.

I realise there is plenty of families going to benefit if this system goes ahead... and like ive already stated i DO AGREE with organ donation. But i also see the other side, i work with these people who were all discussing, i look after them and their relatives. It just seems a tad harsh to throw that at them, when their already vulnerable and sensitive

[Rave]

I realise there is plenty of families going to benefit if this system goes ahead... and like ive already stated i DO AGREE with organ donation. But i also see the other side, i work with these people who were all discussing, i look after them and their relatives. It just seems a tad harsh to throw that at them, when their already vulnerable and sensitive

Yeah, well at the end of the day the organ donation system only works because of tragic deaths. There's always sadness involved. I was a bit drunk when I posted that (as I am now), and, at this juncture, I'd like to say that I have an enormous amount of respect for the nurses and doctors who work for the NHS. I wouldn't be alive now was it not for the NHS, and I still, 12 years after my last operation, hate going into hospitals. I don't think I'd have the strength to be a nurse or doctor myself.

I could earn literally twice as much as I do now if I became a Metropolitan police officer- I don't because I wouldn't want to knock on people's doors and tell them their loved ones have been killed. However, I would be prepared to walk into a room and say that the organs of a dead relative were going to be used to give several other people another chance to live. If my wife was run over and killed tomorrow I would be destroyed, but being told about the lives her organs had saved would be the one thing that could possibly raise me out of my depression.

Rich :¬)

[Devilbod]

Just for arguements sake lets say a person fails to do the opt out, and the Doctors say to the family 'tough, there ours now'.

Imagine that the family for generations has been deeply religious and that it is part of there religion that the body be untampered with after death or they will go to hell.

In that families eyes not only have they lost someone they deeply care about but thanks to your system they have lost there soul to eternal damnation as well.

I know that might be a bit difficult to understand from a non religious point of veiw, but to say the least it wouldnt be very nice. It's fair to say that any system you introduce will have errors or mistakes made after all were all only human. And this database would be every single person in this entre country, all the visitors and tourists it would be huge and very difficult to maintain.
So how long do you think the system will last until that happens and then when it happens what do you think will happen.

One thing is the gov/nhs will get sued to death, imagine the price of someones life, how do you even begin to put a price on someone soul? for eternity?
Maybe it's someone who was on holiday and his entire country raise up in arms about it, wars have started for less after all.
Although its a noble idea after all with the whole idea is to save more lives, one mistake on clerical error and bang youve just infringed on someones basic human rights, to have there beliefs respected.
The Court of Human rights gets involved and the whole thing is abolished.

Either way it could very easiliy go wrong and not only severly effect someones life, but could end up being a massive waste of money that could be better put into better training, equipment, research and advertising the current scheme more.

From that perseptive it's too much of a risk, you may not be religous (I'm not for that mater) but when it comes to the greif of the loss of a loved one it is too much of a risk.
Would you snatch a still born baby from the arms of it's grieving mother because the amount of time before certain organs will fail is almost up?

[Blub2k]

I'm actually going to donate my body to medical research as I found that anatomy was one of the most amazing things I ever had the privilege to study, am kinda glad I never became a dentist with hindsight but the oppurtunity to study anatomy is something that I wish to repay. I still disagree with an opt-out system.

[Rave]

Just for arguements sake lets say a person fails to do the opt out, and the Doctors say to the family 'tough, there ours now'.

Imagine that the family for generations has been deeply religious and that it is part of there religion that the body be untampered with after death or they will go to hell.

In that families eyes not only have they lost someone they deeply care about but thanks to your system they have lost there soul to eternal damnation as well.

Well, then the dead person should have got off their backside and opted out then. If it's as simple to do as making a brief 0800 phone call then really there would be no excuse. What if the family believed all that rubbish and the dead person themself actually disagreed with them and wanted their organs donated? At the moment the family would be able to overule them and go against the dead person's wishes, and that's even more wrong if you ask me.

I know that might be a bit difficult to understand from a non religious point of veiw, but to say the least it wouldnt be very nice.

Yeah, but if you believe that your god is a miserable sod who'd condemn you to hell for the sin of having your organs cut out of your body when you're dead and can't do anything about it, then I venture to suggest that you don't have a very nice life anyway.

It's fair to say that any system you introduce will have errors or mistakes made after all were all only human. And this database would be every single person in this entre country, all the visitors and tourists it would be huge and very difficult to maintain.
So how long do you think the system will last until that happens and then when it happens what do you think will happen.

That won't be a problem. If you can't identify the dead person, then you don't cut the organs out. If you can identify them, they're a UK citizen, and they haven't opted out, then you do. Simple. No tourists etc. would be cut up- or maybe one every couple of years or so, by accident.

One thing is the gov/nhs will get sued to death, imagine the price of someones life, how do you even begin to put a price on someone soul? for eternity?

You don't. If you don't want your organs donated, then opt out. At the end of the day, it's the responsibility of the citizens of this country to find out about the laws the government passes, and take the necessary action to comply with them. It's possible that if you've lived in a cottage in the wilderness for the last 40 years then you wouldn't know that the government has made heroin a controled substance. That doesn't mean that you wouldn't get prosecuted for posession if you were caught with some.

Maybe it's someone who was on holiday and his entire country raise up in arms about it, wars have started for less after all.
Although its a noble idea after all with the whole idea is to save more lives, one mistake on clerical error and bang youve just infringed on someones basic human rights, to have there beliefs respected.
The Court of Human rights gets involved and the whole thing is abolished.

It wouldn't happen. I'll say it again- no ID, no organ donation. Only when it is established that the dead person WAS a UK citizen and HAD NOT opted out, will their organs be taken.

From that perseptive it's too much of a risk, you may not be religous (I'm not for that mater) but when it comes to the greif of the loss of a loved one it is too much of a risk.

Again as I said, you should not assume that the 'loved one' has the same beliefs as the dead person.

Would you snatch a still born baby from the arms of it's grieving mother because the amount of time before certain organs will fail is almost up?

I doubt you could get usuable organs from a stillborn baby. If you could, I might ask the mother if she wanted the baby's organs to be donated, if my kid was stillborn I'd feel better if some other kid could live as a result. There would have to be a lower age limit below which the parents still had the final say on whether the child's organs are donated- I'd probably make it 12 or 14 if it was up to me.

Rich :¬)

[SilentDeath]

To save some typing... I think rave is exactly right on this.

Now devilbod, your resoning seems to be mostly on religion.

"Imagine that the family for generations has been deeply religious and that it is part of there religion that the body be untampered with after death or they will go to hell."

Now I would call that an evil religion. Im not religious, but that doesnt mean I dont know whats right or wrong. I would happly sacrifice my life to save anyone (even though I deeply belive life itself is evil -> maybe the reson I would be happy to end my life; maybe for another thread...)

"In that families eyes not only have they lost someone they deeply care about but thanks to your system they have lost there soul to eternal damnation as well."

They lose there soul in there belifes - there own fault for beliving something so stupid.
Ok what about if there child was murdered, his head cut off or something.. would his body still count as untampered with, or would that particular religion your using as an example (which you have yet to tell which...) count that as tampering - would the relatives still goto hell?

Sorry but in this modern worrld we cannot base our laws and rules of living on pathetically messed up religions.
If all religions were true, then terrorism would be legal, there has to be a line somewhere, preferably not bordering on the insane.