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Thread: Are they really hard up?

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    Pseudo-Mad Scientist Whiternoise's Avatar
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    Are they really hard up?

    I have no doubt that many people are on benefits for a good reason, because they are physically incapable of work. The Beeb ran this article this morning which hasn't really helped me sympathise with people who complain about the benefit cuts:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16812185

    Do they deserve to be complaining?

    My advice: ditch Sky and get the people at home LEARNING, try quitting smoking again (it can't cost more than the £3000 of ash it produces a year at 200/week) and perhaps consider not drinking the 24 cans of lager...?

    Heck if they want entertainment, Lovefilm is £8 a month (c.f. £15 a week) and you get unlimited streaming movies! It costs me around £150 a year to get 4 discs at a time with unlimited streaming for 12 months - so you'd make back Sky Movies in under 3 months and have a much better selection to boot.
    Last edited by Whiternoise; 01-02-2012 at 06:23 PM.

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    Oh dear!

    I would love to know the stats, about who on benefits actually buys so much boose and baccy.

    But the attitude of the mother complaining about the free house been to small for 8 people. Why have so many children.....
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    I saw this and it irked me aswell. Life on benefits isnt supposed to be easy, surely?

    Quote Originally Posted by The lazy dude
    The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise.
    Try adapting your skills into another profession? Christ you have had 12 years to try and learn something new you lazy
    Last edited by Biscuit; 01-02-2012 at 06:42 PM. Reason: wrong quote

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    Pseudo-Mad Scientist Whiternoise's Avatar
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    UPDATE: I see they've got the cap through http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16825646

    The programming part annoyed me too - I often wonder why the people who can't leave their homes don't look for jobs like freelance web design or programming (even blogging!) that don't require travelling to work. He is clearly already someone who knows his way around a computer, why not use it?

    Also, £32 a week on mobiles? That's £17 a month EACH, even my Mum's on a good contract that costs less than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Oh dear!

    I would love to know the stats, about who on benefits actually buys so much boose and baccy.

    But the attitude of the mother complaining about the free house been to small for 8 people. Why have so many children.....
    She had four with an ex, he had two and they had another together. Guess they couldn't afford birth control...
    Last edited by Whiternoise; 01-02-2012 at 07:07 PM.

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Try adapting your skills into another profession? Christ you have had 12 years to try and learn something new you lazy
    I was amazed by this bit, we have such a huge demand for software devs, if your living on benefits anyway its not as if it would cost you anything to learn Java or C#.....
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    I was going to link this, kinda glad someone beat me to it.

    It's people like this that generate so much hate for a system with good underlying intentions. Benefits are meant to be a safety net, not free ****ing sky sports!

    Edit: That's the better part of 42 grand a year if you take tax into account.

    /boggle.
    Last edited by roachcoach; 01-02-2012 at 08:02 PM.

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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    I would like to know what he was doing between 2001 and 2008, the market for software devs and general IT market was booming, anybody could get a job in those days. Even since 2008, if Iw as unemployed and a software writer I would have used that time to write some iphone games or apps or something as that market has exploded since 2008.

    Basically the guy is a lazy waste of space.

    Having 8 kids is really taking the mickey as well. Now I am against forced sterilisation generally, or at least I was. Recently i have come around to thinking that once you start having kids you can't afford that isn't just a cost on you and your family but on society as well. Therefore society should have a say. I don't advocate simply removing the benefits because I do think its unfair on the kids to have to grow up in poverty because their parents are stupid.
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    Also, £15 a week on Sky TV??????

    I used to spend £16 a month on that (now I have no TV, don't need it with no g/f ). What the hell kind of package costs £60 a month?
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Try adapting your skills into another profession? Christ you have had 12 years to try and learn something new you lazy
    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    I was amazed by this bit, we have such a huge demand for software devs, if your living on benefits anyway its not as if it would cost you anything to learn Java or C#.....
    It was unbelievably hard for me to get funding to become an apprentice mechanic, and I'm only 19.

    If you're well into adulthood, I can see it being even harder, with the Job Centre cutting funding for that kind of thing and cuts going on everywhere..

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    Pseudo-Mad Scientist Whiternoise's Avatar
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    Sky: http://www.sky.com/shop/bundles-offers/featured/

    Movies in HD costs £60pm including line rental, but they claim to pay extra for their phone and broadband. Maybe they're just muppets.


    I think mandatory (reversible) sterilisation is the way forward.

    Nobody is allowed to have children under the age of 18. Everyone could be entitled to a couple of children, subject to them showing they are capable of affording it. Any more than that would require higher consent. It solves the problem of teenage pregnancy and still allows people to have children when they mature.

    On the subject of software development - he's claiming there's no market for educational software. What the hell? iOS and Android are bulging to the brim with educational apps...


    @Hoonigan - I have no doubt, but apprenticeships are presumably limited by the number of people that can take you on. You also need access to, I imagine, tools and a workshop which is expensive. Software development just requires a computer and time. There are plenty of resources on how to program, many of them better than textbooks. I can't think of a major language, besides things that need Visual Studio, that require you to pay for a compiler or IDE. Certainly you'd be set with Java, C(++), Python, PHP, etc. the market for web developers is still booming.

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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    I'd be more inclined to change it so benefits isn't a 'lifestyle choice' and is never possible/viable to be so.

    Of course, there are needy, but cases like this beggar belief. Both that it can happen at all and the sense of entitlement: 'eating or heating'? Don't make me laugh.


    There are no easy solutions I admit, but the bill for these things are inexcusable. A balance must be struck.

    Edit: posting on a phone so may add more later/tomorrow
    Last edited by roachcoach; 01-02-2012 at 10:22 PM.

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoonigan View Post
    It was unbelievably hard for me to get funding to become an apprentice mechanic, and I'm only 19.

    If you're well into adulthood, I can see it being even harder, with the Job Centre cutting funding for that kind of thing and cuts going on everywhere..
    Actually they are creating more apprentice places apparently! Not sure which companies will be taking them on thou with the economy quite so bad but the previous political government frowned on them, because you had an 'elite' going to uni, and the rest been sent up the chimneys. As a result the number of apprentice schemes dropped massively over the last 15 years.

    Notice thou I didn't mention funding, or training in fact, I said LEARN. You've got 12 years, you've got the internet, thats more than you need. How much do you think it costs to learn c# if you've got that? Nothing thats how much, if your time is free.

    The person in question is a complete scrounger, as mentioned thats an income of £40k+, he gets as much time as he wants with his kids and no stress.
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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    OK, a little perspective guys.

    We don't know exactly what his skills were in terms of development - he may have been working up to 2001, but his skills could have been learned in the '70s. And it doesn't *say* he was writing educational software in 2001 - just that he did at some point in the past. Also, the kids aren't all from one family: both he and his wife have kids living with them from previous relationships - they've only got one between them. It might be that when they moved in together they only had 2 or three kids living with them but the rest have decided to move in over the course of a number of years.

    And now the perspective is out of the way, lets deal with the idiocy. "Entertainment, £20 a week, I go down the pub once a week and have three of four pints." - So, anyone currently live in Wales? Can they tell me which pub charges > £5 for a pint? "Other expenses, £91 a week" seriously? £4.5k on school uniforms and trips, birthdays and christmases? OK, we've just bought a school uniform, it was about £50. Times six, that's £300. Even if you allowed £50 per person for birthdays and christmas, that's only another £600. So what's the other £3.5k a year actually going on? White goods replacement? You don't replace a full set of white goods each year, and even if you did you can do that for £1k. Sorry, but that doesn't add up. "Sky Moves - if we didn't have this we wouldn't have any entertainment" - apart from the £20 he spends on 3 - 4 pints each week, of course! They could rent DVDs, they have internet so can watch stuff on youtube, hell, they could even read a book or play a game!! There're some great boardgames for 8 players, £30 and you can play them over and over again. "Mobiles - you try telling teenage kids they'll have to do without their mobiles" - erm, no - tell them they can go on pay as you go and will have to get a Saturday job or paper round to pay for their top-ups if they want them. Your family's hard up, deal with it! "Shopping - 24 cans of lager and 200 cigs" so there's about £70 a week straight off. So what if his wife got thrown off a helping you quit course - no-one *needs* to smoke.

    Are they hard up? Well, yes, frankly, they probably are, but they're obviously not using their money sensibly either. I wouldn't *want* to raise 6 kids on that much money, but I could do it, and do it comfortably. The problem with this family is that they're almost certainly scrimping in some (important) areas to get those little luxuries like Sky, mobiles, cigs and beer into the budget. Plus they're not facing up to the realities of the situation - comments like "we're going to have to choose between eating and heating the house" clash really badly with comments like "try telling teenagers they're going to have to do without their mobiles", and "my wife tried to give up, but she missed one appointment on the course and they threw her off it." - if you're looking for things that have to go, then surely the phones and cigs have to go before you start choosing between heat and food

    All that said, this family is also an unusual case because their rent is so low compared to the size of their family. They could perfectly reasonably be claiming for a four or five bedroomed property and getting something like £150 a week in HB which would still only cover their rental costs, but then lose an extra £75 off their benefits under the new capping scheme i.e. over £150 a week less income. That'd be a lot harder to swallow because rent is the one expenditure that you can't easily change. I'm inclined to think it would be more sensible to set a lower benefit cap but remove HB from the capped benefit list, tbh. Easy enough to do. The current legislation just reeks of knee-jerkism and poor fiscal understanding...

    OK, can't resist a quick edit for:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    he gets as much time as he wants with his kids and no stress.
    Time with kids ... no stress ... seriously

    oh, good one - you almost had me there

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    jim
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    OK, a little perspective guys.

    We don't know exactly what his skills were in terms of development - he may have been working up to 2001, but his skills could have been learned in the '70s. And it doesn't *say* he was writing educational software in 2001 - just that he did at some point in the past. Also, the kids aren't all from one family: both he and his wife have kids living with them from previous relationships - they've only got one between them. It might be that when they moved in together they only had 2 or three kids living with them but the rest have decided to move in over the course of a number of years.
    I know what you're trying to do, but anyway, I'll bite

    In 11 years, you could've developed any kind of skill. Members of my family began in the IT trade with skills learned in the '70s, and those skills became worthless, and they found new ones. If his skills were completely ruined, why hasn't he picked up a second hand book on Java/C++ and found some new, more relevant ones. It doesn't take 11 years to get the hang of it, especially not if you're a programmer of some sort to start with. Or moved on, accepted that he's no longer able to keep up in the IT world and found a new career. I think more than a few companies have had vacancies in that period of time.

    As for the kids, surely your point is fairly moot? Short of a rather dramatic 'accident', I don't think anyone is going to be particularly sympathetic towards a bloke who in 2007 has been unemployed for six years, and decides to have a kid. Whether or not the others lived with him at the time, he's not going to get a lot of sympathy.

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    "Other expenses, £91 a week" seriously? £4.5k on school uniforms and trips, birthdays and christmases? OK, we've just bought a school uniform, it was about £50. Times six, that's £300. Even if you allowed £50 per person for birthdays and christmas, that's only another £600. So what's the other £3.5k a year actually going on?
    I'm guessing this is a symptom of being the kind of person that looks after their cash, much the same as my family, but I don't think that's representative of the UK as a whole. Maybe for this family you're right, but seeing as we have absolutely no idea, I think you could easily be underestimating hugely. I know a family, fairly hard-up, where the spend per child at Christmas is £1k. Not on food, or trips to go and see the family, just on presents to be opened on Christmas morning. And the kids know this full well, and tot up the values as they go along to ensure they haven't been short-changed.

    As far as the mother's concerned, they don't have a particularly amazing lifestyle, so a blowout at Christmas makes up for the rest of the rubbish year. I assumed they were somewhat alone in that regard, but through my sister's friendships groups I've discovered that it's extremely common - not £1k in particular, but staggeringly huge amounts for families on similar incomes to this one. And then just before Christmas I saw an advert on a bus shelter. It read something alone the lines of "The new android smartphone, the perfect stocking filler. £299.99." If a stocking filler costs hundreds of pounds... I don't even know. I thought the most expensive thing you could possibly get in a stocking was a £5 CD, on the basis that stocking were meant to be filled with inexpensive junk that's a bit of fun. But then what do I know

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    Pseudo-Mad Scientist Whiternoise's Avatar
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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    When I were a kid...

    ... no, but seriously when I was young. My parents weren't (aren't) massively well off. They had enough money that I'd get a good Christmas present each year, but at the very most I reckon they spent <£100 each - they're divorced so I'd get two presents usually. However, they spent it well. I got things that either they knew I'd love or that I'd keep for a long time. Example presents would be the Lego Pirate Ship, Hornby stuff, a Gameboy Color, etc.

    I suppose it's more difficult now when the latest and greatest thing costs upwards of £200. But then part of parenting should be enacting vigilance on your kids. I didn't have a games console until I was nearly 8/9; in hindsight I deeply regret not growing up with an N64, but I didn't care at the time. Instead I devoured books, my parents had to take them away from me at night (still sneaked them under the bed) lest I ruin my eyes.

    Point being is you don't need to be rich to dote on your kids. No way in hell would I drop a grand on my future kids at Christmas. Unless it was something very specific and useful - like an instrument - then they'll damn well make do with old fashioned things like books and board games. I was never given action man or anything like that, had the odd teddy bear though, but I never hankered after 'plastic' toys. Similarly my parents had an outright ban on toy firearms, the only thing I ever got of that ilk was a spud gun when I was ten from my gran.

    Part of good parenting is knowing when to say no to your kids. They'll get over it, really. The key is not giving in to them and getting them to expect miracles - and then scuppering your bank account over it.

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    Re: Are they really hard up?

    My childhood wasn’t particularly difficult, my parents were far from well off but we more than enough to get by thanks to my Dad working his ass off. Me being the first child I was probably a little bit spoiled, infact in all I would probably still say we were more than a little bit spoiled.... but not in comparison to these kids who are on benefits! We didn’t get sky until I was about 14-15 and even then we only had it a year or two before my parents got rid of it. At Christmas and birthdays it was always a budget of £100 for me. Infact I think birthdays my budget was only £50 for a long time and because mine is so bloody close to Christmas, if I wanted anything big, the presents would always get bundled together .
    Yes there were years when I was disappointed with what I got and yes my brother and I would often have arguments over who got the better presents but I grew out of it and now have a lot of respect for what my parents did and the amount of work they put in.
    The same applies to mobile phones, if I wanted a mobile phone I had to work for it, even before I could get a proper job (my parents wouldn’t let me get a paperboy job) I had to do chores around the house to earn my pocket money to pay for it.

    Its no wonder to me that kids are turning out to be entitled little brats with no discipline or morals nowerdays when parents are too afraid of disappointing their children a little bit in their youth with the purpose of actually teaching and encouraging them to achieve something with their lives in the future.
    Last edited by Biscuit; 02-02-2012 at 11:04 AM.

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