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Thread: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

  1. #17
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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    No, it started *way* before that. The same parties have been involved in struggles for that bit of land for thousands of years. The (re)creation of Israel by Britain and allies was just yet another time the Arab nations were pushed out to make room for an Israeli state.
    I was talking about modern history, but if we're talking ancient history, the ancient Hebrews have primacy claim. Arabs didn't even show up on the historical record until the 9th century BC.

    But talking ancient history makes about as much sense as talking about the plantation of Ireland when dealing with The Troubles in Northern Ireland. What happened hundreds to thousands of years ago is irrelevant, what matters is where we are now, and how best to proceed.
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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    What happened hundreds to thousands of years ago is irrelevant
    No it's really not irrelevant. We in the West have short memories but that could be because we've seen so much change in identity. Other cultures do not have such short memories, and the conflict in the middle east is a direct continuation of historical events. They are fighting because of ancient claims, not in spite of them.

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    No it's really not irrelevant. We in the West have short memories but that could be because we've seen so much change in identity. Other cultures do not have such short memories, and the conflict in the middle east is a direct continuation of historical events. They are fighting because of ancient claims, not in spite of them.
    But that is the problem surely?

    In the same way nationalisim does nothing but devide people. This is whats going on. We all share a common ancestor if we go back far enough. Who decides how far back one goes? Someone who is trying to serve their own agenda. If there is no living memory of something been owned, I can't understand the rational behind it.
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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    How many countries truly serve its people ?

    Iceland perhaps but not many
    I'm guessing you've never been to iceland, and no nothing of its politics. Compared to Norway, it's population really do not conisder themselve served by their goverment.
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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    You mix money , weapons and war as the answer to our solutions and you will cause x 100 as many problems just to create a new one , and i dont think SABRE (Synergistic Air-Breathing Rocket Engine) is going to exactly solve or help diplomatic solutions do you ?
    Why are you bringing SABRE into this?? A civilian program?? Why don't go up to Alan Bond who has dedicated his life to his project,scavenging funding for decades to push it forward,and tell him that then.

    Why the heck do you have an issue with space??

    Its all a luddite attitude,the world has x problems,blah,blah. Using your logic we would have never invented metallurgy,since most weapons use metal.

    The morons don't understand we have been killing each other since the stone age. Its always about people nothing else. Yet,as usual just use an axe to grind as an excuse to screw over something you don't like,which is exactly what you are doing. You don't even realise it.

    How about you don't use want the flipping weather forcasts then?? Or TV? Or use GPS?? Or any flipping thing to do with space or any space related or derived technologies?? You might find things such as solar panels,synthetic fabrics, and titanium alloys being on the list too. Don't use them.

    How about we fire half the aerospace engineers and scientists in this country then??

    Typical of this country. Just spit on the educated people,that it is all about that nowadays and yet benefit from all the advances. There is no pride in our achievements, at all,nothing.

    Selfish self-centred person.

    Are you just jealous of people more intelligent than you?? Typical Dog in the Manger attitude.

    If you want to be a luddite then stop being a hypocrite,run off into a field and live in ditch,and don't use any modern technology.

    You live in a world of science,rely on it and then piss on the people who have dedicated their lives to it.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 07-12-2012 at 01:02 PM. Reason: Typo!


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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Why are you bringing SABRE into this?? A civilian program?? Why don't go up to Alan Bond who has dedicated his life to his project,scavenging funding for decades to push it forward,and tell him that then.

    <---snip--->

    You live in a world of science,rely on it and then piss on the people who have dedicated their lives to it.
    One of the best rants I can recall in a long time - somewhat justified as the SABRE programme has nothing to do with the issue of Arab/Israeli territorial conflict.

    The Palestinians remind me of small boys poking a stick into a hornet's nest and then complaing about being stung. The Israelis like the school bully who complains when someone gives him a bloodied nose.

    This is not a conflict that will be resolved militarily. But until the two sides reach a diplomatic solution, the conflict will continue - and the UN has hardly covered itself in glory over this.
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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    But that is the problem surely?

    In the same way nationalisim does nothing but devide people. This is whats going on. We all share a common ancestor if we go back far enough. Who decides how far back one goes? Someone who is trying to serve their own agenda. If there is no living memory of something been owned, I can't understand the rational behind it.
    Yes, the historical claims are exactly the problem, and in these cases probably go right back to sibling or familial squabbles of ancient ancestors and/or their slaves etc.

    Just an example, but take a father who dies leaving two sons and unclear heritage (rights to first born normally, except where given away. Dispute caused by giving away of rights then changing mind). Each son takes their own tribe and fights over the land. Their descendants continue the fight. Their descendants continue the fight.. and so on for 300 generations or more until you have two nations who both believe they have a legitimate right to the land and the insult to themselves so grave that they will accept nothing else but the annihilation of the other nation.

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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Typical of this country. Just spit on the educated people,that it is all about that owadays and yet benefit from all the advances. There is no pride in our achievements, at all,nothing.

    Selfish self-centred person.
    What is really funny is if you asked me a single device that has provided a level playing feild for the world, it would be the mobile phone. With the exception of Maritaunia, every place I've been no matter how *third world* has a good form of mobile service that is very popular with its residents.

    We've seen the difference it makes in political opression. But also just transfering knowledge. The difference the latter makes is massive, I had the pleasure of working with someone who was teaching people about the benefits of irrigation, many farms don't understand how a little bit of time spent digging better ditches, money on materials for storage of water can massively double their yeilds. All of his work relied on mobile internet and smart phone cameras.

    Both the CCD sensor and microwave radio as we know it are almostly entirely by products of war. Hot or Cold. They make massive impacts in the quality of life of all people. They also allow for people like us to know whats going on.

    I'm also sick to death of this whole one percent nonsense. It's just a way of people waving their hand and vaugly saying those types rather than accurately describing the behaviour they dislike. For instance the ascersion that the 'one percent' support israil is nonsense. There are many rather wealthy oil types who definately don't. I'd hazard a guess that the support of Israil is probably inline with country of residence and other things rather than economic ranking.
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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Why are you bringing SABRE into this?? A civilian program?? Why don't go up to Alan Bond who has dedicated his life to his project,scavenging funding for decades to push it forward,and tell him that then.

    Why the heck do you have an issue with space??

    Its all a luddite attitude,the world has x problems,blah,blah. Using your logic we would have never invented metallurgy,since most weapons use metal.

    The morons don't understand we have been killing each other since the stone age. Its always about people nothing else. Yet,as usual just use an axe to grind as an excuse to screw over something you don't like,which is exactly what you are doing. You don't even realise it.
    Well your making a assumption there , if you take into account the world is far older and possibly was more advanced ( in more ways than one ) than we are now , then perhaps technology without weapons and the need for war , was possible - or at least far less of it

    My point is using fear to justify progress is a losing argument and even moreso if you buy into the idea its ok because theirs violence any way and unrest.

    Then where do you draw the line there ?

    Thats like saying its anything goes because it doesnt matter any way.

    And what makes you think wed be less advanced if not for war ?

    What about curiosity and mystery and the unkown and dreams , are you telling me killing folk is what motivated Einstein or Newton .

    So I say BS , id rather have a happier cohesive and honest world than a corrupt, spoiled and grossly unbalanced one as we do now, and if space is responsible for that, then maybe we shoulnt be poking our nose in others worlds until we can take care of our own.

    After all even if we do colonise mars or somewhere what makes you think we'll do a better job than our own ?

    How would alien respond too looking at our history and your own logic ?

    Do you think it would want to be part of that war too , and if so then we better sure as hell be prepared , eh ?

    m
    Last edited by melon; 07-12-2012 at 01:39 PM.

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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    The thing is I am quite aware,of people want to keep a war going on,as it is profitable,both in money and power. But,that is an issue with the system and the people behind it,which means people are the only way to change it.

    It happens everywhere,but that is nothing to with technology though, which annoys me when people blame technology for the worlds ills,because 3000 years ago the same thing happened. You can have an AK47 under your bed,but no one is forcing you to ever use it. The weapon itself is an inanimate object. People using it,gives it the life to kill. Its just a very easy way to pass the buck and a very lame way. Yet many of use would be either not be alive now,or even in a worse position now if it were not for scientific advances.

    Moreover,the fact that we are even aware of these issues,is due to scientific advances which lead to better communications. Go back 500 years and a lot of use would not even know what would be happening 10 miles out of their own village/town.

    Space is a very easy whipping boy for it all by clueless people,and as usual it is a Dog in the Manger attitude. However,in the scheme of things,total space private and public spending is a fraction of what people spend on prostitutes,porn,alcohol,recreational drugs and cigarettes worldwide. In fact humanity spends more on cigarettes worldwide than all public and private space spending.

    Although,it does make me think the neo-luddite movement must be smoking some strong crap.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 07-12-2012 at 01:45 PM.


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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    Well your making a assumption there , if you take into account the world is far older and possibly was more advanced ( in more ways than one ) than we are now , then perhaps technology without weapons and the need for war , was possible - or at least far less of it

    My point is using fear to justify progress is a losing argument and even moreso if you buy into the idea its ok because theirs violence any way and unrest.

    Then where do you draw the line there ?

    Thats like saying its anything goes because it doesnt matter any way.

    And what makes you think wed be less advanced if not for war ?

    What about curiosity and mystery and the unkown and dreams , are you telling me killing folk is what motivated Einstein or Newton .

    So I say BS , id rather have a happier cohesive and honest world than a corrupt, spoiled and grossly unbalanced one as we do now, and if space is responsible for that, then maybe we shoulnt be poking our nose in others worlds until we can take care of our own.

    After all even if we do colonise mars or somewhere what makes you think we'll do a better job than our own ?

    How would alien respond too looking at our history and your own logic ?

    Do you think it would want to be part of that war too , and if so then we better sure as hell be prepared , eh ?

    m
    WTF,has SABRE got to do with war?? Fear?? What?? Space is responsible for the world's ill??

    Have you been smoking some CLASS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA+ stuff or something?? You seem really confused.

    You are just warping things to fit some weird agenda,as you seem to have an axe to grind. It seems a FUD based compaign at work here.

    Edit!!

    I see where this is going.

    Chau!
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 07-12-2012 at 02:04 PM.


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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Definitely worth watching this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TTlK5bOQ2c

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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    The thing is I am quite aware,of people want to keep a war going on,as it is profitable,both in money and power. But,that is an issue with the system and the people behind it,which means people are the only way to change it.

    It happens everywhere,but that is nothing to with technology though, which annoys me when people blame technology for the worlds ills,because 3000 years ago the same thing happened. You can have an AK47 under your bed,but no one is forcing you to ever use it. The weapon itself is an inanimate object. People using it,gives it the life to kill.
    yes, and people are full of emotions and egos which is why technology becomes more dangerous the more advanced it becomes , because although you can create an off switch for technology , you cant do it for people. ( Esp those in positions of power like governments / super elite )

    And once people have taste of that power technology brings - there is no turning back - it becomes a lust for the sake of having even more that is only being controlled
    by those ( super elite ) who clearly cant control it all.

    They just keep taking and taking and...

    m

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    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    yes, and people are full of emotions and egos which is why technology becomes more dangerous the more advanced it becomes , because although you can create an off switch for technology , you cant do it for people. ( Esp those in positions of power like governments / super elite )

    And once people have taste of that power technology brings - there is no turning back - it becomes a lust for the sake of having even more that is only being controlled
    by those ( super elite ) who clearly cant control it all.

    They just keep taking and taking and...

    m
    While this might be a suitable topic for a thread in its own right, it is not particularly relevant to the OP here. Please keep to the topic, which was Israel's building programme in disputed territory.
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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    While this might be a suitable topic for a thread in its own right, it is not particularly relevant to the OP here. Please keep to the topic, which was Israel's building programme in disputed territory.
    I disagree , it doesnt have to be a whole thread , its just a straightforward point .


    ego + technology = Power

    Power + Ego = More Power ( More Ego )

    REPEAT

    more ego + more technology = Even More Power .....

    etc etc

    Technology never satisfies it only creates the need for more , because our egos want more , for the same reason more wealth never makes any one happy

    Its just cycle of greed created by our egos need.

    m
    Last edited by melon; 07-12-2012 at 02:47 PM.

  16. #32
    Senior Member Smudger's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Israel Expanding its controversial building program?

    Technology doesn't create the need for more. That's completely a human reaction. Technology, being largely inanimate, can only do what the user tells it to do.

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