Religion: A force for good or ill?

[TheAnimus]

These comments might anger some people but I speak nothing but the truth. It is your responsibility to open your eyes and see the truth

Oh dear
How about answering the question posed in the topic?

Don't you see, he not just answered it, but demonstrated it wonderfully. It also exemplifies that phrase I quoted earlier.

It's great for him, just everyone around him who is ****ed. How dare they think rationally.

[wasabi]

My two cents on the matter :

-Without Religion, you are just an animal.

Correct. Homo sapiens is an animal species.

-If you don't believe in religion, you don't belive in God either.

i believe religions exist. All the churches in the area prove that. Doesn't make me believe in god.

So, how do you think you were made ? Who gave you your soul ? You, who were made from nothing but mud, who are you to question HIS existence ?

Not sure how I was made, but chances are pretty good it wasn't a magic man in the sky. I don't have 'soul' - more of a funk / trip-hop / 90s hardcore guy myself. Who am I to question his existence? Me - my choice.

-There are religions which were preached by prophets at the instructions of God aka God-approved religions. These are Judaism ( Jewish ), Christinaity, Islam ( Muslims ). All other religions such as Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Scientology, Jedi are not God approved and are man-made and the followers will not be entitled for Heaven selection on judgement day.
- If you are atheist, gay,lesbian, transgender, Satan-worshipper, you are destined for hell.

These comments might anger some people but I speak nothing but the truth. It is your responsibility to open your eyes and see the truth

I suppose if that is what the sky fairy told you, then at least your view is consistent.
However rhe sky fairy didn't magically send me that memo.

[TheAnimus]

Well actually they kind of were. The church was what enabled education and encouraged scientific examination in the first place and it was scientists like Newtons own beliefs that led them into scientific studies in the first place. The liberalising of free thought wasn't due to a decline in religion, merely a shift from one type to another, no less devout.

Yes, the established churches in europe were a bastion of enlightenment and helped further scientific advances all the time. They never cried heresy to any of the people who were attempting observation based sciences because it would have changed the status quo of their worship.

For people like Newton, he was born into a religious family, and melded to become something of the institute. A better question would be, what would have happened to his principles of maths, had he not been distracted by bible code!

To try and balance a question like this, we can't really say "church made newton's theories possible" because we can't in anyway prove the theory that he would have done the work anyway with or without the influence. What we can do is say that people no born under a religious viewpoint appear to do good science too. People not born with religious doctrine tend not to oppose things for silly reasons (gays, stem cells, earth revolving around the sun). We can have some kind of model that shows only deterioration due to religious views on scientific progress, it is very hard to demonstrate this with non-religious groups. As such I think it is perfectly fair to say that the Catholic Church was a major force against scientific progress.

Moral progress is harder to define, as morals are subjective. But today, right now, it's incredibly easy to see the damage they do, and very hard to see the good they do via church doctrine. Prophylactic education opposition is killing people. If a small percentage of the worlds population didn't have the idea of "killing someone is a sin, sins make me burn in hell" would we see more people murder? Probably not, countries with lower theism generally have lower murder rates...

[AETAaAS]

Sorry, Pleiades. Just have rebutt these points quickly.

My two cents on the matter :

-Without Religion, you are just an animal.
Religion acts as a code of conduct for humanity and it keeps mankind humane.
-If you don't believe in religion, you don't belive in God either.
So, how do you think you were made ? Who gave you your soul ? You, who were made from nothing but mud, who are you to question HIS existence ?
-There are religions which were preached by prophets at the instructions of God aka God-approved religions. These are Judaism ( Jewish ), Christinaity, Islam ( Muslims ). All other religions such as Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Scientology, Jedi are not God approved and are man-made and the followers will not be entitled for Heaven selection on judgement day.
- If you are atheist, gay,lesbian, transgender, Satan-worshipper, you are destined for hell.

These comments might anger some people but I speak nothing but the truth. It is your responsibility to open your eyes and see the truth

On the first point; I refer to my earlier statement; "Killing is bad, stealing is bad, lying is bad. If you think doing those things is only in contravention to your faith, I have unfortunate news for you; you are a bad human being." Imagine two people; one who does good because he recognizes that his actions could have an impact on someone else. Or, someone who does good only because he was told to do so in a "code of conduct" and because he fears retribution. Surely, it is the former person that we should aspire to be.

On the second. Even if the beginning of time and space as we know it is unknown to science, it does not automatically mean the answer has to be the God of the Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. As Smudger alluded to, it could have been Zues or Pandora. We may all even be an elaborate experiment by aliens into "intelligent" life. We can't disprove that.

Third, religions by and large claim their own God. Christians and Muslims think each other have got it as wrong as anyone else.

Fourth, I defer to TeePee's response.

[kalniel]

As such I think it is perfectly fair to say that the Catholic Church was a major force against scientific progress.

And yet the protestant Church wasn't. What conclusion can you draw from this: That religion is a force for good or ill, or that the Catholic Church is a force for good or ill?

[TheAnimus]

And yet the protestant Church wasn't. What conclusion can you draw from this: That religion is a force for good or ill, or that the Catholic Church is a force for good or ill?

I'm measuring the ill. Assuming that its too hard to get a baseline for good, when so much of it is variance. Is it fair to say Newton was because he was Christian? Or what about Einstein or Hawking. Do we just pick famous people?

The one thing we do know, is no atheist group, has persecuted people for a theory of planetary motion. So yeah, I'll count the Ill.

[kalniel]

I'm measuring the ill. Assuming that its too hard to get a baseline for good, when so much of it is variance. Is it fair to say Newton was because he was Christian? Or what about Einstein or Hawking. Do we just pick famous people?

The one thing we do know, is no atheist group, has persecuted people for a theory of planetary motion. So yeah, I'll count the Ill.

But atheists have done various other nasty things. Does that mean atheism is a force for ill?

[TheAnimus]

But atheists have done various other nasty things. Does that mean atheism is a force for ill?

Not the same, because they don't justify it so.

When torturing people to death for not believing in a god, those doing it had a moral excuse, if challenged, they would torture and kill you. People did expect that inquisition!

If some nut job, starts talking about the lizard people or whatnot, you simply don't pussy foot around it, you call them mentally ill. Religion is often used as an impenetrable shroud for these things. You can't question it!

I'd also suggest that statistically, countries where more people identify themselves as not practicing a religion tend to have lower murder levels, thou I accept it is very hard to compare crime levels.

[wasabi]

But atheists have done various other nasty things. Does that mean atheism is a force for ill?

They havn't done it in the name of atheism.

[TooNice]

I'd have to agree with a lot of what AETAaAS has said. I voted "bad" in the poll because from my perspective, in my lifetime, religion has done far more bad than good. However, I would differentiate between "religion" and "faith". Religion seems to have far more capacity to bring out the worst in people, almost like a mob culture. Faith on the other hand is a very different thing, it can give people a lot of strength to deal with problems in life (not just fear of death).

Hmm, is it possible to have just faith? As opposed to a faith in "something"? e.g. Faith that tomorrow will be better than today. Faith in your loved ones. Faith in Science. It also seems to me that religion requires an element of faith.

Buddhism is a philosophy and attacking Muslims or anyone is not anywhere in Buddhism last time I checked.

Hmm, whereas I agree that attacking others is not part of Buddhism, I would say that it is a form of religion.

But in agreement that religion is just one of many pretext people use to do horrible things to each other. Religion can have a powerful influence, and can amplify people's action. But so can, a particularly charismatic leader.

They havn't done it in the name of atheism.

It might not have happened yet. But can you say, with 100% confidence, that it can't happen? An atheist dictator in power who decides to "cleanses" the religious for "holding back progress", or whatnot. I sincerely hope that I am wrong, but I am sceptical. As the atheism increase, I reckon that it's statistically only a matter of time before a deranged but charismatic individual in the wrong place and wrong time manage to get into power and decide to "save" the world in a deranged and horrific way.

It seems pretty clear to me, by the simple fact that I am still alive today, that someone can be a practitioner of X religion, without wanting to eliminate everyone who isn't a practitioner. Regardless of the text could be interpreted. But there are enough messed up things in the world that it does happen.. but I am unconvinced that the opposite can't happen just because it might not have happened yet.

[kalniel]

They havn't done it in the name of atheism.

Nor have catholics done ill in the name of protestantism, or hinduism etc.

[kalniel]

If some nut job, starts talking about the lizard people or whatnot, you simply don't pussy foot around it, you call them mentally ill. Religion is often used as an impenetrable shroud for these things. You can't question it!

So is science, art, football, etc. All have been used as rational for ill, that does not make them inherently a force for ill.

[melon]

They havn't done it in the name of atheism.

The funny thing about atheists is that simply reject one god for another

[wasabi]

The funny thing about atheists is that simply reject one god for another

No. They reject all gods or they wouldn't by definition be atheists.

[Pleiades]

The funny thing about atheists is that simply reject one god for another

Sorry Melon that doesn't appear to make much sense to me


Plus: how can I reject a God if I don't believe in one?

[melon]

Sorry Melon that doesn't appear to make much sense to me

Ah well, Im not going to spoil the fun , cat knows what I mean

Plus: how can I reject a God if I don't believe in one?

The same way you are talking about it to me