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Church Lending Money?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23433955
So the Church has said that it is going to try and squeeze Wonga out of business, by undercutting them.
Once again the Church proves that its principles are a bit arse about face, and completely misses the point.
The only people going to Wonga, are people who are financially irresponsible and behaving frankly like children.
If you're on the dole, their are better options available, if you are working then not only should you have savings, but it would be a much better bet to pawn something / loan-buy-back it at your local pawn shop. The fact that Wonga have an iPhone app frankly says it all to me.
The people who are using them need advice and a damn good clip round the ear. You are in debt, why are you buying fags and booze? Why the hell did you buy an expensive phone when you don't have cash savings. No one 'needs' such a thing. It doesn't 'save' money. Same with things such as Sky. People get in to debt / contracts without thinking them through.
They would be much better not murkying the waters of their faith (fairly sure the Bible had a lot more to say about not lending / changing money, than it did against gays and marriage) and instead provide advice and teaching of budgetary skills.
The rank hypocrisy doesn't surprise me, it is after all a church, but the way they are going after a symptom not a cause is frankly disappointing.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Heard this on R4 on the way to work. I must admit it caused a wry smile and some muttering about the Money Changers in the temple.
There is a need for micro-credit for the high-risk groups, and Wonga (et al) is usurious, but the Church ? I seriously doubt that the clients of such sites are regular members of the congregation. Setting up a CAB-type thing non-religous thingy would be the way to go.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
For me it's just the mechanics of it. It isn't money they need, everyone has access to enough money in the UK (everyone being people Wonga would lend too, so not really everyone.) but they don't have financial responsibility.
They need to learn to budget and say no.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus 22:25
“If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him.
So free then, presumably?
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
They would be much better not murkying the waters of their faith (fairly sure the Bible had a lot more to say about not lending / changing money, than it did against gays and marriage) and instead provide advice and teaching of budgetary skills.
The rank hypocrisy doesn't surprise me, it is after all a church, but the way they are going after a symptom not a cause is frankly disappointing.
Do check the facts before leaping to accusations. The Church already allows its buildings to be used to provide advice and teaching of budgetary skills. That will not suddenly stop now that they've launched their own (not for profit) credit union for their own clergy and church staff, or that they're now going to provide advice and help to non-profit lenders so that those lenders can compete better with pay-day loan companies.
Should the state be doing this rather than a charitable organisation? Yes, probably. We eagerly await any sign that in these austerity times they would be willing to help subsidise and even take the losses that such credit unions would incur in the same market.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Do check the facts before leaping to accusations. The Church already allows its buildings to be used to provide advice and teaching of budgetary skills. That will not suddenly stop now that they've launched their own (not for profit) credit union for their own clergy and church staff, or that they're now going to provide advice and help to non-profit lenders so that those lenders can compete better with pay-day loan companies.
Should the state be doing this rather than a charitable organisation? Yes, probably. We eagerly await any sign that in these austerity times they would be willing to help subsidise and even take the losses that such credit unions would incur in the same market.
So the not for profit credit union, how is that going to work? They will have to charge some interest to cover administration costs and defaults, not to mention simple inflation.
That of course is forbidden.
However, the fact it is happening in church premises is also forbidden. Money changing anyone?
It's stupid pointless posturing which has done nothing but give Wonga more media attention.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
So the not for profit credit union, how is that going to work? They will have to charge some interest to cover administration costs and defaults, not to mention simple inflation.
That of course is forbidden.
However, the fact it is happening in church premises is also forbidden. Money changing anyone?
It's stupid pointless posturing which has done nothing but give Wonga more media attention.
Are you confusing a church with a Jewish temple? Or an invited credit union with someone who would disrupt and hassle people on their way to worship? The cleansing of the temple is what happened when the temple authorities were using the building to make profit off people. That isn't the same as giving advice to a non-profit credit union.
Why is it forbidden to charge administration costs? Churches already do this for weddings, concerts etc.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
"Archbishop admits he hasn't read bit in Bible about moneylenders"
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...-2013072576913
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Re: Church Lending Money?
@kalniel
I'm broadly in agreement that the Church should be providing the advice. It's sorely needed. I don't see this group going to a church for that sort of service.
If this is a competitive strategy, the church will have to create a site/app that is incredibly easy to use and offer real financial services. It's this that I have a squirm about. Should the church be acting like a financial institution ?
Inherently, I suppose, I'm not all sure about any Church being in 'Business'. Advice, certainly. Charity, certainly. Credit....I'm not so sure.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
The people who are using them need advice and a damn good clip round the ear. You are in debt, why are you buying fags and booze? Why the hell did you buy an expensive phone when you don't have cash savings. No one 'needs' such a thing. It doesn't 'save' money. Same with things such as Sky. People get in to debt / contracts without thinking them through.
That would be an incredibly pointless measure, and everybody would rightly laugh at the Church if that was their intention. People get angry enough at them for telling them what to do, especially when non-Christians are dictated to.
I don't think this specifically is a good idea, but at least it's doing something practical. Churches are sometimes all about the saying, and nothing about the doing, and more action is a good thing.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
I think it is an interesting idea and hopefully they add in some education on budgeting for those who may need it. Hopefully they run as interest free or on very low interest rates on small sums.
At the moment the likes of Wonga are just exchanging money between other companies like Wonga who then pay Wonga back when it is their turn. That is not a healthy position. Usury should be illegal. Why the govt hasn't capped max interest rate these lenders/ CC companies can charge is beyond me.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phage
If this is a competitive strategy, the church will have to create a site/app that is incredibly easy to use and offer real financial services. It's this that I have a squirm about. Should the church be acting like a financial institution ?
No, it shouldn't in general. But people are reading too much into Welby's 'competing' words, not helped by the likes of the BBC implying that it's the Church that's doing the competing. It's not - the Church wants to encourage credit unions to do the competing - not the Church. This has probably been muddled with the news that the Church is launching its own credit union for its own staff. Every organisation I've worked in has had its own credit union for staff, so I don't really view that in the same like as offering financial services, though I guess in a way it is. The Church still has to do all the usual financial stuff like payroll too :p
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Inherently, I suppose, I'm not all sure about any Church being in 'Business'. Advice, certainly. Charity, certainly. Credit....I'm not so sure.
Business, maybe not. Personal finance.. certainly - religions have a lot to say about money. Advise for the secular society though.. interesting ground, and I think not actually being done with the religious hat, but instead it's part of Welby's drive to promote local communities and the Church's role in helping that. Civic duty rather than religious duty if you will. And rather than just talk about it, he's saying: Act.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Aha ! Much more sensible.
So, I agree the Church can and should act to sponsor credit unions. (if I was the Church, I'd be auditing their arses every 20 mins to prevent damage to the Church's name though.) There's a huge risk there.
Yep I've been in CUs myself and only swapped when my little CU from Aus got me stranded in Singapore. A CU for the church 'staff' is no problem.
Yes, Civic hat indeed. Good to see, actually. Risk is a little scary, and would have to be managed very carefully.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
The people who are using them need advice and a damn good clip round the ear. You are in debt, why are you buying fags and booze? Why the hell did you buy an expensive phone when you don't have cash savings. No one 'needs' such a thing. It doesn't 'save' money. Same with things such as Sky. People get in to debt / contracts without thinking them through.
I have always seen them as heroes personally, endlessly fighting to keep the economy growing.
Not the ones we need but the ones we deserve. :vacant:
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Are you confusing a church with a Jewish temple? Or an invited credit union with someone who would disrupt and hassle people on their way to worship? The cleansing of the temple is what happened when the temple authorities were using the building to make profit off people. That isn't the same as giving advice to a non-profit credit union.
I was taught it was ment as a template of what is allowable and what isn't.
It's such a surprising interpretation to not have it any other way? I guess this is one of those bits people don't pay attention to, shame they can't do that to the whole book and realise they don't own the concept of marriage!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Why is it forbidden to charge administration costs? Churches already do this for weddings, concerts etc.
Because they aren't poor people in need of a loan...
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
snootyjim
That would be an incredibly pointless measure, and everybody would rightly laugh at the Church if that was their intention. People get angry enough at them for telling them what to do, especially when non-Christians are dictated to.
I don't think this specifically is a good idea, but at least it's doing something practical. Churches are sometimes all about the saying, and nothing about the doing, and more action is a good thing.
Forced requirement for a zero rate loan lasting two weeks, which requires an 'audit' and that person to stick to their plan for any further instalments. They could even make them forcefully collateralised (ie we own your TV whilst you have this loan).
Sometimes just showing people a tabular format of their expenses, then pivoted on to groups such as Alcohol/Tabacoo/JunkFood can really help people realise. My 'Coffee Habbit' cost me about £800 one year.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Interesting that a group who advocates taking 10 percent of their followers' income (titches) should be giving out financial advice.
However the congregations of credulous people who believe in puff-the-magic-skymonkey are also likely to be the sort who take out stupid loans and overspend on junk. So I see a 'marketing' correlation in groups.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
Because they aren't poor people in need of a loan...
What's that got to do with it? Profiteering is considered bad regardless of circumstances. Administration charges aren't (or shouldn't be) profiteering, hence I guess the advocation of non profit credit unions over commercial pay-day loan companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wasabi
Interesting that a group who advocates taking 10 percent of their followers' income (titches) should be giving out financial advice.
So the government should never give out financial advice either? Interesting.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wasabi
Interesting that a group who advocates taking 10 percent of their followers' income (titches) should be giving out financial advice.
A Credit Union is an established method of low cost lending where members of a community can establish a mutual fund to cover short term loans. It was this process that lead to the establishment of mutual societies and subsequently Building Societies, which until they de-mutualised, were owned by the members.
I can find no reference to financial advice in this article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23433955 which would require FSA regulation (although I'm sure Justin Wellby is well qualified to do so) Neither do I see any mention that lending will be to restricted to church members. There is a long history of mutually co-operative societies - the other well known one being the Co-Op.
But personally, I'm in favour of any community of people getting together to help each other, rather than falling into greater debt through the usurious practices of payday loan companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wasabi
However the congregations of credulous people who believe in puff-the-magic-skymonkey are also likely to be the sort who take out stupid loans and overspend on junk. So I see a 'marketing' correlation in groups.
Ah, nothing like a sweeping generalisation with a smug sneer when there is little constructive comment to add :)
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
What's that got to do with it? Profiteering is considered bad regardless of circumstances. Administration charges aren't (or shouldn't be) profiteering, hence I guess the advocation of non profit credit unions over commercial pay-day loan companies.
Okay, but to me it looks like weasel wordings.
Person comes to Church or Church sponsored thing.
They borrow money.
They pay back money. Which is more than they borrowed.
How is that not forbidden by the bible?
Then again I suppose the whole Thou Shalt Not Kill thing is a bit hazy at times. Amazing as in Sunday school I was never told it had a little * next to it with a whole bunch of exemptions.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
Okay, but to me it looks like weasel wordings.
Person comes to Church or Church sponsored thing.
They borrow money.
They pay back money. Which is more than they borrowed.
How is that not forbidden by the bible?
Why would that be forbidden by the bible? Just trying to understand which bit you are talking about.
Is it Luke 6:34-35?
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
.
They borrow money.
They pay back money. Which is more than they borrowed.
How is that not forbidden by the bible?
The Christian Churches, along with Islam, forbids usury. Although I am reluctant to cite Wikipedia as authoritative, it defines usury as
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...the practice of making unethical or immoral monetary loans. Depending on the local laws or social mores, a loan may be considered usurious because of excessive or abusive interest rates. According to some jurisdictions and customs, simply charging any interest at all can be considered usury.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury
What is excessive is open to debate, but the rates payday loan companies charge compared to the base rate I would consider to be usurious. On the other hand, charging a fee or charging interest that is designed only to cover costs would not.
Credit Unions are covered by the 1979 Credit Union Act
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/34
and regulated by the Prudential Regulation Authority
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/pra/P...gislation.aspx
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Why would that be forbidden by the bible? Just trying to understand which bit you are talking about.
Is it Luke 6:34-35?
Exodus 22:25
Luke as you say (nothing in return bit is my favourite part) But maybe till 38?
Deuteronomy 23:19
Proverbs 22:7 oh that one doesn't count, making them slaves is OK isn't it?
Leviticius 25:37
Psalm 15:5
Nehemiah 5:10
Ezekiel 22:12 well I suppose it depends what you mean by extort.
Okay I'm bored of my googling now. But I'd say in quite a few places.
Now please, find me the one that forbid the church to have a gay marriage?
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
Exodus 22:25
Yup, for starters the Church isn't lending money to people, but mainly is not treating its advice or help to Credit Unions as a business (ie to make profit from).
Quote:
Luke as you say (nothing in return bit is my favourite part) But maybe till 38?
Yup, Church still isn't lending money to people and expecting to get something in return for the act of doing so, and their advice to credit unions certainly isn't condemning I'd hope. Don't forget that the Church gives to the poor/needy, it does not expect a return on that aid, in line with that quote.
OK, I don't think the Church is making loans to Isrealites here :p Or if you'll allow some interpretation, it seems to be saying that if you live in a community of shared provision then don't try and bring a trade system into it. Conversely if you're dealing with a trade system then trade is allowable.
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Proverbs 22:7 oh that one doesn't count, making them slaves is OK isn't it?
Seems to be stating an observation about the world at the time, not an instruction.
See same bit from Duet, but again, about profit.
Yup, the church gives aid to the poor.
Again, yes, the church tries to follow this example and gives aid to the poor.
Same again, definitely not good to profiteer from the poor.
So let me ask once again, where does it forbid paying back more money than they borrowed if it's not profiteering? None of those quoted bits forbid it.
Quote:
Now please, find me the one that forbid the church to have a gay marriage?
That's forbidden by UK law, not the Church (which has pissed off several church people). Were it allowed by UK law I think the church would look at it just as they're looking at other things. In the bible all the examples of marriage are between a husband and a wife I'm pretty sure. Don't know if there's anywhere forbidding otherwise however - let me do a better search later.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Yup, for starters the Church isn't lending money to people, but mainly is not treating its advice or help to Credit Unions as a business (ie to make profit from).
At what point are they doing it, rather than endorsing it? I can't myself see how they aren't violating the spirit if they endorse anyone to do it.
Thou shalt not kill*
Strikes me to be the logic here. We hold this to be an immutable rule, unless we don't wish too. Sadly the bible wasn't written in something with an ENBF that specifies predicates precedence!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
So let me ask once again, where does it forbid paying back more money than they borrowed if it's not profiteering? None of those quoted bits forbid it.
That's forbidden by UK law, not the Church (which has pissed off several church people). Were it allowed by UK law I think the church would look at it just as they're looking at other things. In the bible all the examples of marriage are between a husband and a wife I'm pretty sure. Don't know if there's anywhere forbidding otherwise however - let me do a better search later.
Ezekiel I finished with because I thought it did it best. The question is what is profiting? If one loan is able to make up for a default, that is a profit on that loan, even if the entity overall is flat.
Gay marrage was forbidden on church property at the request of religious groups. Now it's had royal ascent its legal elsewhere. This will be so damned funny in 50 years and hopefully will help end this institution by displaying the bigotry in a manner irreconcilable with views at that time. As the marriages on church premise are not descriessionary but forbidden. Rather funny own goal team intolerance have scored there.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peterb
Ah, nothing like a sweeping generalisation with a smug sneer when there is little constructive comment to add :)
But a generalisation because it is true. Have some evidence to back it up. And it most certainly is marketing, in the same way religious schools and food aid in Africa are - tied to exposure to 'the message'.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
So the government should never give out financial advice either? Interesting.
One of the main jobs of government is to forcibly take your money away from you and spend it. So no, I wouldn't take financial advice from the government.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wasabi
One of the main jobs of government is to forcibly take your money away from you and spend it. So no, I wouldn't take financial advice from the government.
Have you seen the deficit and the national debt? No, I don't think they should be giving financial advice.
The church, on the other hand, is loaded. Maybe they can provide guidance on tax avoidance.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAnimus
At what point are they doing it, rather than endorsing it? I can't myself see how they aren't violating the spirit if they endorse anyone to do it.
Again, they are not endorsing anyone to profiteer. Quite the opposite - look at that list of passages, and consider how they apply to a commercial pay-day lender. Seems clear to me that the pay-day lender doesn't do so well, so what can the Church do about it? They could sit back and do nothing - something they were accused of doing during the financial crisis. They could petition for better regulation and caps on interest for pay-day lenders - oh, they did that and it achieved nothing. They could use what expertise they have in house to advise - they did that do with Welby being on the select committee. Now what can they do? How about helping support a more sustainable and fair financial system that directly addresses a need of the poor? That's what they're doing in their support of credit unions.
But please don't think they wouldn't be open to other ideas that you think would work better. Suggestions?
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Strikes me to be the logic here. We hold this to be an immutable rule, unless we don't wish too.
Again, which part of the not-profiteering rule do you think is being broken here?
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Ezekiel I finished with because I thought it did it best. The question is what is profiting? If one loan is able to make up for a default, that is a profit on that loan, even if the entity overall is flat.
Ah OK I think I understand where you're coming from now - your interpretation is that every single transaction the Church does, or helps, or gives advice to etc. must be at either a loss, or at best, cost. Otherwise it falls foul of what is meant by profit. Well you're welcome to your interpretation, but Christians generally believe there is a coherent reasoning behind advice or instruction given in the bible, and that ultimately, it would be in our, or the group it was aimed at's, benefit to take it on board. I would suggest that breaking it down into individual transactions for no good reason wouldn't be consistent with the things expressed in those verses and the contexts in which they are set, which is of the aim to help the poor, not to take advantage of them.
The premise is that pay-day loan companies at the moment are not helping the poor, and instead are taking advantage of them. The aim of supporting credit unions on the otherhand should provide competition and force pay-day loan companies to improve their service for the poor. The end result being that the poor are helped more than if the church had not taken this action. In such a thing, it appears to be entirely consistent with the bible passages.
I really don't understand how some people can be critical of this move - do most of you really think that pay-day companies should be left to carry on as they are?
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Gay marrage was forbidden on church property at the request of religious groups.
Request of *some* perhaps. All the Anglican church bodies I know are fully supportive of gay marriage. But that is a topic for another thread.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Though if you want hypocrisy, how about the Church indirectly investing in Wonga :o
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23459932
Not deliberately of course.. and investigations are under way to how it happened.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Its nothing new, the Church "invests" in weapons firms too, or at least did a few years ago, and was quite happy doing so.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peterb
What is excessive is open to debate, but the rates payday loan companies charge compared to the base rate I would consider to be usurious. On the other hand, charging a fee or charging interest that is designed only to cover costs would not.
Thats the trouble in a nutshell.
Do the likes of Wongas interest and/or fees excessively exceed costs and some profit?
I, personally, think some of the problem is that theyre required to provide an APR, for something that isnt repaid over more than a month, and so people just point at it and get hysterical "look look 5000%!!!"
Surely though, the church should be doing its job and directly supporting the poor and needy, rather than just assisting people to get into more, albeit possibly more manageable, debt.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BobF64
Thats the trouble in a nutshell.
Do the likes of Wongas interest and/or fees excessively exceed costs and some profit?
I, personally, think some of the problem is that theyre required to provide an APR, for something that isnt repaid over more than a month, and so people just point at it and get hysterical "look look 5000%!!!"
....
That is indeed part of it, as is the point that people using the likes of Wonga are typically those that don't gave access to more traditional firms of finance, be it bank overdraft or credit card, and are therefore often those with credit problems, and so inherently high risk.
I wouldn't have thought credit unions and payday lenders lent to the same customer type.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
brilliant news this morning. the church of england apparantly helped finance wongas setup!!!!
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bytejunkie
brilliant news this morning. the church of england apparantly helped finance wongas setup!!!!
I know. It's utterly priceless, isn't it. :D
But to be fair, the Church pension fund invested a very small part of it's assets in a US venture capitalist that invested in Wonga. But oh, it's funny as hell, and proof-positive that the Universe, or God, has a sense of humour, and endless ways to ensure we each keep a little humility.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BobF64
Its nothing new, the Church "invests" in weapons firms too, or at least did a few years ago, and was quite happy doing so.
It's not happy doing so, and the practise was stopped in 2001 I think. There's an ethical committee that rate investments and they're not meant to invest in companies primarily involved in these things. The discussion on the radio was what they meant by primarily etc. and the point was made that in the real world you can't guarentee that a company you invest in isn't going to have some kind of link with something you don't want to invest in - the example was of a clothing manufacturer having their socks bought by an army. Still, the intention is to invest companies whose business is primarily ethical. But mistakes are made. If you're saying that only an organisation made up of 100% perfect people has the right to try and make things better for other people then you'll be waiting a long time!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BobF64
Thats the trouble in a nutshell.
Do the likes of Wongas interest and/or fees excessively exceed costs and some profit?
Yes.
Quote:
I, personally, think some of the problem is that theyre required to provide an APR, for something that isnt repaid over more than a month, and so people just point at it and get hysterical "look look 5000%!!!"
Surely though, the church should be doing its job and directly supporting the poor and needy, rather than just assisting people to get into more, albeit possibly more manageable, debt.
They are directly supporting the poor and needy as well, as best as they are able. The question is what else can they do to help that? And this support of credit unions is another new way they are attempting to do this - at the moment those that need pay-day loan companies don't have other options - now to be clear - a professionally run pay-day company like Wonga is much much better than an illegal loan shark - which is why you have to be careful about regulating them out of existence. But if you offer alternatives, like credit unions, then you are genuinely improving things for the poor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bytejunkie
brilliant news this morning. the church of england apparantly helped finance wongas setup!!!!
Nice of you to join us, better late than never :p (PS what's brilliant about it?)
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Good interview with Welby this morning. Funny bloke.
Admitted to it being 8/10 on the embarrassment scale, but understood how it happened with a portfolio in the multi-billion range.
Also admitted to being momentarily irritated with some of his staff and investment managers. I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting. That big crozier looks like it could be useful in hand-to-hand combat
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phage
Good interview with Welby this morning. Funny bloke.
Admitted to it being 8/10 on the embarrassment scale, but understood how it happened with a portfolio in the multi-billion range.
Also admitted to being momentarily irritated with some of his staff and investment managers. I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting. That big crozier looks like it could be useful in hand-to-hand combat
Yes, I listened to that too - refreshing to hear someone hold up their hands and say that it was a mistake. Hope a few politicians were listening.
I'm sure he will be 'putting some crozier about' :)
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peterb
Yes, I listened to that too - refreshing to hear someone hold up their hands and say that it was a mistake. Hope a few politicians were listening.
I'm sure he will be 'putting some crozier about' :)
As did I, and yes, he came across very well.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peterb
..... - refreshing to hear someone hold up their hands and say that it was a mistake. Hope a few politicians were listening.
.....
A politician both listening to something other than their own voice, AND admitting to their mistakes???
What next? World peace? Moon on a stick? Cure for cancer? The Tooth Fairy hosting Newsnight?
Not that I think your expectations might be a tad unrealistic there, Peter, but a politician that listens? Really?
:D:D
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Re: Church Lending Money?
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Oh, that's superb. Priceless.
Somehow, I suspect His Archbishedness is beginning to wonder how his wheeze went to badly pear-shaped, quite so quickly.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
Somehow, I suspect His Archbishedness is beginning to wonder how his wheeze went to badly pear-shaped, quite so quickly.
I don't think it has to be honest. It's got a lot of people talking and thinking about an otherwise fairly forgotten portion of society, pay-day loan companies and lack of alternatives, what credit unions are and how they can help, and it also helps address people who say the Church should be getting more involved in community issues ontop of what they already do.
Even the hypocrisy fail has done some good as it's got people talking about what ethical investments actually are, and it looks like at the end of it the Church's investments will be more ethical than they were before he said anything.
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Re: Church Lending Money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
I don't think it has to be honest. It's got a lot of people talking and thinking about an otherwise fairly forgotten portion of society, pay-day loan companies and lack of alternatives, what credit unions are and how they can help, and it also helps address people who say the Church should be getting more involved in community issues ontop of what they already do.
Even the hypocrisy fail has done some good as it's got people talking about what ethical investments actually are, and it looks like at the end of it the Church's investments will be more ethical than they were before he said anything.
True enough, kal, true enough.
I'm all for credit unions. Blooming good idea, good principles, and more power to them. And if the Church can help by making access to facilities cheaper, easier and more widespread, that's good too.
But I'm not convinced it'll address the fundamenral problem(s).
First, the current metric, APR, isn't really an appropriate way to judge payday operations because of the way it's calculated. Even the CodE reckoned it could lend at "only" 80% or so .... and they already have the premises so have zero costs from that.
And for all sorts of reasons, I have grave doubts that that estimate is realistic, or that the Church has the expertise to assess actual costs.
Second, payday lenders have a legitimate role IF used the way they're supposed to be, which is short-term bridging. But those using it that way aren't paying the sky high rates because they aren't rolling over, and that, primarily, is what causes the penalties, escalation of costs and ridiculous APR figures.
The problem is, as I understand it, to get loans from a credit union you have to first, be a member, and second, have savings and a savings history. Surely, those that are going to get clobbered by rollover charges are exactly those that won't have savings and a track record at a credit union?
The only thing I can see eliminating the extreme escalation of charges caused by repeated rollovers is legislation, which so far, government seems unwilling to do, and even if they did do it, the risk is they'd drive those desperate enough to do use payday lenders that way out of using payday lenders straight into the clutches of underground loan sharks, which may well be a cure worse than the disease.
