Russia to build new super army! Ukraine, Human Rights and WW3

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

A bit off-topic but just having read this I'm now thinking I'd love to know what the card categories would be for that.

Self-serving??

[Galant]

Self-serving??

Taking the High Road
Consistency of Action
Consistency of Speech
Consistency of Action to Speech
Consistency of Logic
Legality of Action
Selflessness
Care for the weak
Consideration of Others
Commitment to Justice

[Top_gun]

Actually, you did. I quoted it directly in my reply. But here it is again, from post #84, the bit in bold.

It seems we're going around in circles on this point so I refer you to my last answer on this subject.

As for the second part of the post I'm replying to here, it wasn't what I was commenting on, and of course you're entitled to your view, but I certainly do see the Russians as the villians of this. Ukraine is a sovereign country, recognised by Russia and the international community, and Russia only a few years back guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine's borders .... and then did exactly what it promised not to do. Which just goes to demonstrate what Putin's word, or Russia's while he's running it, is worth. He'll abide by his word only when it suits him. The rest of the time, it's about as useful as used bog-roll.

Of course, you're still entitled to your opinion, but that is mine. Russia planned and stoked up this mess, and not for the first time. The seizing of Crimea was as blatant a land-grab of another sovereign country's land as I can think of, and the downing of this plane has followed from Russia's interference and provocation of so-called separatists. He may not have given the order to fire, and may well regret the downing of this aircraft, but in my opinion he's as guilty as hell of it, because the entire conflict is his plan.

Ultimately, there's only one way to handle bullies when they get out of hand, and that's to thump them firmly on the nose. Sadly, the bunch of whores we have running Western countries are showing clear signs of not having the balls for it. France won't, because it wants to sell aircraft carriers, Germany won't because of gas, snd while Cameron makes all the right noises, heaven forbid that we cancel those 200 export licences. Wnd as for flaiming "it's for Brazil", oh please. If Brazil wants to buy, fine, let them buy from us. But not via Russia. Not after this. So come on, Cameton, grow a pair. ALL military exports to Russia should be stopped, immediately, with no exceptions. Do you realise how much of an idiot, and hypocrite, you look, otherwise, eh, Cameron? Eh, eh? Do ya?

I'm just taking a third person distant and neutral view on the present conflict. Your views hinged on the Ukranian government being legitimate and with transfer rights to Crimea. Historically though Crimea was always part of Russia.

Fully agree on Cameron looking like an absolute idiot and hypocrite by expecting others to take sanctions.

[opel80uk]

An excellent piece in The Guardian today, which touches on why the past isn’t so irrelevant to today as others might have you believe.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ssia?CMP=fb_gu

[j1979]

I very much doubt that, after the overthrow of the Yanukovych regime, corrupt or otherwise, Putin saw Ukraine as an ally. If you accept that, then he becomes just another leader invading another country, with it slightly nuanced because of the fairly recent history of the Soviet Union.

You are right about the ethnically Russian. What I should have said is supporters of a pro-Russian Government:
http://america.aljazeera.com/multime...itycrisis.html

The link you sent does not show support for Russia's imported separatists, it's pre-revolution votes for the Party of Regions. You can not claim a vote for Yanukovych is a vote for Russia... it's not.


With a larger proportion of ethnic Ukrainians in all areas of the East, it's hard to see how a bunch of self proclaimed rulers with AK47's , that are ethnic Russian mainly from Russia, could win popular support. In fact I know for a fact they don't have popular support, but are clinging onto fringe support.


Support for the pro Russian government in liberated areas is even lower, as https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK found out to his cost. He went back to Sloviansk after rebel defeat to interview what he though would be dejected locals. Only to find many people hostile to the rebels and pleased with the Ukrainian triumph.

You see a large amount of these people you see on BBC, a large chunk of these "we hate the Ukrainian army" chanting "Ra Se Ya" people see are stooges sent from Russia. Bus loads.. sure there are some genuine supporters of the Russian separatists, and some will simply be siding with the strongest side. It's not hard to get an interview with a pro-russian "local" in separatist areas.. yet in every area they have been cleared out from the people are relieved to get back to normal, and the hard-line separatist supporters have vanished along with the fighters.

As I have been saying from day 1, it's all a wall of Kremlin FUD and propaganda. There is an tiny element of separatist support. Yet that's all it is. Russia have run out of stooges to support these chanting "locals" after MH17.

To quote vice

"But the Ukrainian military since retook the town (Sloviansk), and the reporter found that despite his best efforts to put words into the mouths of residents, they were not nearly as pro-Russia or pro-rebel as he remembered."

As you can see from his last video, he does not get a nice reception. GrahamWP_UK reported for Russia Today (freelance) and must now be contemplating his actions. Many have said he was working as a Russian intelligence agent, yet if true he managed it without being Russian or Intelligent, he has now been arrested by Ukraine and will be either charged or released after questioning.



It's all in Russian so you need to take my word for it. She says we are all Ukrainian, that the Referendum is a joke, and that people fighting here are not from Ukraine. She finishes with the words "Live Ukraine". That was the best response he got.

https://news.vice.com/article/its-ti...ing-in-ukraine

The is not and never has been majority popular support for Russia's actions anywhere in Ukraine. And only popular support in some parts of Crimea, Sevastopol and parts of Simferopol. Everywhere else including Odessa, the popular support is for Ukraine. The longer the non-local Russians use genuine locals as human shields the more Putin digs his own grave.

Ukraine had before this crisis, a longer life expectancy, better state education, better health service, ranked higher for social development and has high rating for democracy. Now the people of Crimea, on paper have had there life quality reduced by Putins annexation. Should sanctions bite and Russia's economy crash while Ukraine improves, then you will see unrest in many areas of Crimea and maybe even in Sevastopol if it gets really bad.

Popular support for Russia and Putin is the grand illusion he wanted the world to believe, and pleanty of people swallowed it, including several people on the forum, but unfortunately for him it's crumbling .. He will be dead within 5 years or rotting in a gulag somewhere.

[Saracen]

It seems we're going around in circles on this point so I refer you to my last answer on this subject.

Well, when you say

How is the separatists/Russian actions any different to when the CIA interfered in the Afghan/Russian conflict during the 1980s?

I have trouble seeing that as not being a question. After all, it starts with "How is ..." and ends with a question mark.

You can refer to your previous, or last, answer all you like, but that was the question you asked, and that I answered.

I'm just taking a third person distant and neutral view on the present conflict. Your views hinged on the Ukranian government being legitimate and with transfer rights to Crimea. Historically though Crimea was always part of Russia

No. I'm basing it on Russia accepting Ukraine, and Putin himself guaranteeing the integrity of it's borders, personally and by treaty. Then violating the hell out of that guarantee.

Where have I said the Ukraininan government is legitimate? Or not? What it isn't, though, is Russia's job to promote insurgency in a neighbouring sovereign state, because IT feels the government is illigitimate, especially doing it by biting off a damn great chunk of it on that pretext, having explicitly guaranteed not to do so.

[j1979]

It seems we're going around in circles on this point so I refer you to my last answer on this subject.



I'm just taking a third person distant and neutral view on the present conflict. Your views hinged on the Ukranian government being legitimate and with transfer rights to Crimea. Historically though Crimea was always part of Russia.

Fully agree on Cameron looking like an absolute idiot and hypocrite by expecting others to take sanctions.

As for Cameron, yes hypocrite.

Not sure if 170 years should mean "always"

Katherine the Great invaded and claimed it under treaty, before that Crimea was part of the Ottoman empire, the Mongol horde and before that it contained a mix of people from areas including modern-day Greece and Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia. If has been ruled by many empires, there were some slavic people there in before 1856 but both the Ukrainians and the Russians can claim to be the descendants of these people.

Crimea is has not always been Russian. Street names in some towns are Turkish, and Mosques and Islamic style buildings are everywhere, as are greek ruins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chersonesos_Taurica

Only Sevastopol and parts of Simferopol feel truly Russian and Sevastopol is not technically part of Crimea anyway but a separate entity.

[peterb]

Fascinating though that is, and bearing in mind that yesterday there were accusations of taking the thread off topic, now seems a timely reminder that the original topic was specifically about MH17.

Although the definitive truth has yet to be established, it seems generally accepted that it was brought down by rebel fighters using Russian made hardware.

Many of the statements made here have already been made in a thread here

http://forums.hexus.net/question-tim...ights-ww3.html

If you want to continue the overall Russia/Ukraine situation - that is the place to do it. If you want to add to the specifics of MH17 - not that there is much else to add - then by all means contribute to this thread.

If it continues off topic - I'm minded to close it, or merge it with the existing one.

[j1979]

Fascinating though that is, and bearing in mind that yesterday there were accusations of taking the thread off topic, now seems a timely reminder that the original topic was specifically about MH17.

Although the definitive truth has yet to be established, it seems generally accepted that it was brought down by rebel fighters using Russian made hardware.

Many of the statements made here have already been made in a thread here

http://forums.hexus.net/question-tim...ights-ww3.html

If you want to continue the overall Russia/Ukraine situation - that is the place to do it. If you want to add to the specifics of MH17 - not that there is much else to add - then by all means contribute to this thread.

If it continues off topic - I'll close it.

Yes if the other thread had not been closed. Sure lock down thread 3 on the subject and we can fragment it. But if you think the Ukraine / Russia situation the historical context is not related to flight MH17, then there is very little room for discussion.

I'm simply correcting inaccurate information.

Double standards are more obvious then usual btw.

[peterb]

The other thread is now open. However, it was only closed after you had started your own blog on the subject, which you reference in your signature.

[j1979]

The other thread is now open. However, it was only closed after yopu had started your own blog on the subject, which you reference in your signature.

It's not the reason i was given for it to be closed. but either way, it would possibly be better to merge because, both subjects overlap quite a bit.

[opel80uk]

......it would possibly be better to merge because, both subjects overlap quite a bit.

Fair point to be honest. It is a hugely important development in the crisis.

[peterb]

Threads merged. Items specifically relating to MH17 have been copied to a separate thread in General Discussion.

[Galant]

Russians Troops need a refresher on map reading, apparently...

[j1979]

Russians Troops need a refresher on map reading, apparently...

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/27/6069415...aine-right-now

"Western world can set all the red lines it wants — don't use chemical weapons, don't invade sovereign countries — but if you cross that red line just a little bit at a time, inching across over weeks and months, rather than crossing it all at once, then Western publics and politicians will get red-line fatigue and lose interest by the time you're across."

Lets be honest Russian troops have been in Ukraine since the start. They are just getting a little more and the numbers are increasing. Putin won't stop untill he has pulled Ukraine apart at the seems, just because they like the EU more than Russia.

When will western leaders actually say it straight to Putin? Lets hope the next president Hilary Clinton has more balls than Obama.

[Galant]

Presence of Russian tank strongly indicates Russian supply of arms to rebels.

Pro-Russian rebels advancing south in Ukraine to key port of Mariupol.