Russia to build new super army! Ukraine, Human Rights and WW3

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Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH

Oh dear,you must have not taken some meds. You seem paranoid and angry. Instead of complaining on a forum in the UK go and fight the good fight against the new Satan instead of sitting like a good old daily mail/telegraph reader on your arse like an armchair general. No, you would rather send someone else to make the sacrifice.Yawn.
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LOL

Yes you added that after. Me and my wife are booked on wizz air (I am a wizz air club member) flight to Kiev on Tuesday from Luton come meet me at the airport if you want. But if you can't get off the sofa I will send you some photos. We wanted to go much earlier but I have other commitments.

I am going to help supply hot tea and if possible soup to the protesters to Yanukovych . Who (Yanukovych) has paid for people to come from east Ukraine to counter the main Ukrainian protest. I repeat... he PAID protesters to form an opposition.


By the way... You do know who my avatar is don't you?

Cat did you see the Dimbleby BBC Russia series? We just bought the box set. It's well worth a watch, and quite eye-opening as to goings on inside Russia and the political view of the man on the street. Unsettling too. We're only 4 episodes in and I'm startled frankly at what I'm learning.

Strong emotions (clearly from the heart) raises strong passions and sometimes strong words on many sides. Can I very gently remind some to refrain from personal comments (however gentle) as it is too important a subject to be trivialised in that way.

That's all (I hope......)

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Originally Posted by ik9000

Cat did you see the Dimbleby BBC Russia series? We just bought the box set. It's well worth a watch, and quite eye-opening as to goings on inside Russia and the political view of the man on the street. Unsettling too. We're only 4 episodes in and I'm startled frankly at what I'm learning.

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I love Russia and a lot of Russian culture, as noted by by avatar (a russian national icon, Cheburashka), I also speak a little, their history is amazing. I just hate Putin, as he tries to undo all of the progress made since the 1980's

I have witnessed a Russian victory parade in Sevastopol. It's very intense and emotional. but I almost died standing in 33 degree heat for 2 hours. Met some peope on the train that week and they invited me to kamchatka, which looks amazing. Would love to go one day... When Putin is not around.

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Originally Posted by peterb

Strong emotions (clearly from the heart) raises strong passions and sometimes strong words on many sides. Can I very gently remind some to refrain from personal comments (however gentle) as it is too important a subject to be trivialised in that way.

That's all (I hope......)

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This, please take heed chaps. Having a debate's all well and good but let's try and make sure it doesn't get personal! :)

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Originally Posted by j1979

The US took on the roll of the police of the world because no other country could, and lets be honest if there were not there we would either be speaking Russian or German now if they had not.

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Personally, I think that's a stretch. A big stretch and one that all but completely discounts the efforts and victories made by allied forces at several points throughout history. It's very easy to be anti-US and have it be a very fashionable view that nobody questions because of their... No, OUR recent actions in the middle east but history shows us that an occupying force almost always loses, be it Russian, German, English, American, Roman... Go as far back as you like. Eventually it always goes pear shaped, coalitions are formed, wars fought and generally the occupying force is left with scraps of the territory they took by force once it's all said and done, if that.

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Originally Posted by j1979

The USA does have a huge army to police its borders and interfere in world events that they see as a threat, no matter how small..... this is true, but history also shows Russia only grows a large army when it wants to expand it's boarders.

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The USA's armed forces are actually on the back foot numbers wise thanks largely to the public's view of their actions in Iraq and Afganistan. Technologically they're superior but the US no longer have the kind of big stick that grants them dominance anywhere and everywhere with boots on the ground. While you are correct that historically speaking Russia only expands their armed forces when they're planning something dastardly, they aren't expanding on an already formiddable force. From what I can see they seem to be trying to stabilise parts of their economy while making something of an effort to rebuild. Serving two purposes at once. Firstly it pulls their armed forces up to date (which as CAT has already explained is something that they sorely need to do if you look at what they're actually working with) and secondly it creates a large number of jobs, stabilising the economy somewhat and attempting to secure re-election for the current party on that basis. We did something very similar in the middle east, invading Iraq and Afganistan not only created jobs at home but secured lucrative contracts for western corporations to help with the rebuilding effort. Contracts that should have gone to local corporations in an effort to create jobs in the countries we'd just spent millions destroying infrastructure in, but I digress....

And no, I don't like Putin. Mr KGB was responsible for so many dodgy, underhanded deals during the previous election that went all but unnoticed over here that I can have nothing but a negative opinion of him, much like a certain member of the Bush family ten years ago. As far as Putin's sabre rattling goes though it seems to be just that. They started up cold war style patrols over the outer hebridies a few years ago... It's not a relevant threat, we send up a couple of Typhoons and the bears go home again. We know this, he knows this. However, to members of the public that still remember the reach and punching power of the Russia of old it seems like a step back into the ring and a reminder to west that they're still here.

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Originally Posted by j1979

To compare US foreign policy with Russian, is crazy.

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You're right, the Americans have at times been far worse. They're just more subtle about it.

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Originally Posted by j1979

USSR has invaded Poland twice in the last 100 Years! and occupied it for a lot longer. There is a good reason why Sweden have built such a high tech navy.

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True, well the first part is anyway, I'm no expert in Swedish naval policy. However, if we were all to judge a nations military intent using a combination of it's current rate of military development and it's actions after previous cycles of military development then Yugoslavia, China, Germany, Japan, Iran, Puerto Rico, Korea, Lebanon, Vietnam, Iraq, Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, Oman, Greneda, Bosnia, Afganistan and Pakistan would all be watching every move the US make with baited breath because at some point over the last 100 years every single one of them has been occupied, bombed, controlled or brow beaten by the US and their military. In fact some of those countries are still occupied by US forces. I'm sure I could write quite a list of all the countries the UK have occupied ground in over the last 100 years as well.

Note - I'm not discounting the damage Russia have done during their occupation, nor do I discount the damage done by the UK and US during their multiple tenures as occupational forces around the world. I'm merely attempting to provide some context :)

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Originally Posted by j1979

They are funding Yanukovitch's Ukraine, and will hold Ukraine to ransom with Natural gas prices like the last time Ukraine has a pro EU government.

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The US has disguised almost every military move its made in the past decade under the banner of peace keeping or liberation while securing resources for itself and doing very little to help the local population.

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Originally Posted by j1979

They have still not withdrawn from Kaliningrad after the second world war!

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We still haven't withdrawn from Gibraltar and we've been there since 1704...

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Originally Posted by j1979

Out of the 14 counties they have shared a land border with in the last 100 years they have invaded or occupied 11 of those.

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We share borders with nobody yet have invaded all but 22 countries around the world in our long and illustrious past...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9...uxembourg.html

Does that make us warmongers to be feared?

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Originally Posted by j1979

I will say it again. Russia has a history of invasions and full efforts at assimilation, It invaded Poland twice in the last 100 years and invaded Ukraine and has exercised genocide in both counties. Do you really think that the people of Ukraine and Poland think of Russian the way you do?

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As I've tried to make clear, so do we... So does the United States. We all have a bad reputation as far as the rest of world's concerned at this point. Gone are the days that we have to live in fear of an Ekranoplan tearing it's way onto British shores though.

I do strongly disagree with some of the things going on in Russia and many other countries around the world right now. I also agree that a global conflict in some way shape or form is probably going to occur in my lifetime but we're in no position to think we have any kind of high moral ground over Russia given our own past and our own current foreign and domestic policies. I don't see Putin's plan as some kind of precursor to a bid for expansion to the point of global domination either. There's undeniably a precedent for it, I just don't see it happening right now. What I see is a country that's on it's knees in many respects starting to build itself up again after a huge economic downturn, albeit under some very questionable leadership the actions of which should be and probably are being closely monitored.

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Originally Posted by Knoxville

This, please take heed chaps. Having a debate's all well and good but let's try and make sure it doesn't get personal! :)

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It's always the same on Hexus. Always... Those with the most post's can come into a thread, make insults and accusations (non of which are true and are so off the mark its laughable). Take the thread in the total different direction to try and make the point that the original point is wrong. Which it isn't, Putin is a very very bad and deep down evil man. And just for the record, there has been some very bad recent US presidents too, but that is not what i started the thread for. I started the thread to bring some awareness as to what and who Putin really is.

This is not a thread on American, EU or UK foreign policy. But if you do want to compare it then start a different thread.

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Originally Posted by Knoxville

Personally, I think that's a stretch. A big stretch and one that all but completely discounts the efforts and victories made by allied forces at several points throughout history. It's very easy to be anti-US and have it be a very fashionable view that nobody questions because of their... No, OUR recent actions in the middle east but history shows us that an occupying force almost always loses, be it Russian, German, English, American, Roman... Go as far back as you like. Eventually it always goes pear shaped, coalitions are formed, wars fought and generally the occupying force is left with scraps of the territory they took by force once it's all said and done, if that.

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Sorry, but you are wrong.

History and boarders are won and drawn by the victors, and the maps reflect the brutality of the invasion or scale of assimilation / extermination. England is a prime example, the native peoples of this country were not Anglo-saxon. Yet to this day England remains for the Angles. The USA was invaded, again by the English of mainly Anglo-saxon backgrounds, settled, the native people either assimilated or exterminated and maps redrawn.

Russia which it's self is a Viking invasion, of Kiev (Kievan Rus) after that started to decline the people that were to become the Russians moved east and settled in present day Moscow. From there when Ivan the Terrible became leader they killed, and invaded all of Siberia and settled these lands to which they have remained to this day.

Istanbul or to give it it's correct name Byzantine then later Constantinople was a Christan city which was part of the Roman / Byzantine empire. People often think of Romans as being Italian, but most Italians are of somewhat different lineage, and the decedents of the people that started out in Rome and the remains of the Roman empire, which to this day survives, but we now refer to it as Romania. The rest of Turkey was not, Ottoman Turkish land, but most of it was Armenian land. 1 Million of them were marched to death camps less then 100 Years ago.

Australia, many aboriginals consider the occupation of their county to be in full swing, as with some maoris in NZ.

The world is littered with countries that have disposed the native people. Some of them the fault of the UK and US, some not.

To this day you will find, French communities inside German territories and Vice versa and many other cultural overlaps in Europe, to which the EU was the ultimate aim. The EU was born to stop nationalism by giving us all a common, shared identity and to water down European boarders. And to that aim, so far it has been reasonably successful.

Now Putin... He does not like the EU, maybe because he knows Russia will never meet entry criteria without political reform. He knows that Germany did not win the war, but does not like the fact they seem to be winning the peace.

What Putin is doing is stirring nationalism and it needs to be stopped. So if you want to talk about Putin then please contribute. If you want to talk about American or UK foreign policy then start a different thread.

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Originally Posted by j1979

It's always the same on Hexus. Always... Those with the most post's can come into a thread, make insults and accusations (non of which are true and are so off the mark its laughable). Take the thread in the total different direction to try and make the point that the original point is wrong. Which it isn't, Putin is a very very bad and deep down evil man. And just for the record, there has been some very bad recent US presidents too, but that is not what i started the thread for. I started the thread to bring some awareness as to what and who Putin really is.

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I didn't say Putin was a nice guy, or that his actions aren't in many cases deplorable, quite the opposite. If you feel I've attempted to change the nature of the discussion then I sincerely apologise. As I said, I was attempting to provide context as much as anything. You kept mentioning Russia's track record of invading and occupying countries and their ambitions as a superpower. I was merely attempting to show that the UK and US have a similar track record and ambitions. Yet we plough huge amounts into our military year on year and it's seen as routine, even necessary, yet Putin lays out a plan to invest in Russia's military and suddenly Russia's planning to start WW3...

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Originally Posted by j1979

This is not a thread on American, EU or UK foreign policy. But if you do want to compare it then start a different thread.

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That all three have affected Russia directly does make them relevant in my opinion but as I said before, I'm not here to change the topic and if you feel bringing that into it would then fair enough.

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Originally Posted by j1979

The world is littered with countries that have disposed the native people. Some of them the fault of the UK and US, some not.

To this day you will find, French communities inside German territories and Vice versa and many other cultural overlaps in Europe, to which the EU was the ultimate aim. The EU was born to stop nationalism by giving us all a common, shared identity and to water down European boarders. And to that aim, so far it has been reasonably successful.

Now Putin... He does not like the EU, maybe because he knows Russia will never meet entry criteria without political reform. He knows that Germany did not win the war, but does not like the fact they seem to be winning the peace.

What Putin is doing is stirring nationalism and it needs to be stopped. So if you want to talk about Putin then please contribute. If you want to talk about American or UK foreign policy then start a different thread.

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I disagree to extent, mostly due to the fact that superior technology/fighting techniques and or greater numbers made invasions and occupations such as those possible but that gets us into a whole other discussion, several in fact! Modern day military occupations are a very different animal...

As I mentioned, I'm aware Putin is stirring nationalistic sentiments, he's been doing it for some time. I find it fairly distasteful as well, I find the mans actions in general to be extremely distasteful. But discussing that Russia's recent investment in the military isn't just about Putin and what he wants. Yes it plays into his hands, but there's a bigger picture to take into account.

on the maoris, it's worth pointing out that 1) they displaced the people there before them 2) they regard themselves as a warrior people. They therefore can't complain when we beat them if we did it on their terms. The tricky thing is we did it partly militarily and partly duping them with treaties that didn't really honour what they were meant to. They can have some beef with that part, but on the military front the UK beat them fair and square.

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Originally Posted by ik9000

on the maoris, it's worth pointing out that 1) they displaced the people there before them 2) they regard themselves as a warrior people. They therefore can't complain when we beat them if we did it on their terms. The tricky thing is we did it partly militarily and partly duping them with treaties that didn't really honour what they were meant to. They can have some beef with that part, but on the military front the UK beat them fair and square.

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Fair comment! But I thought NZ was "terra nullius" or empty of people, before the Maoris

The giant moa roamed and top predator was the haast eagle. But if you have a link to evidence of people before the Maoris I would love to read and learn about it. I love this type of stuff.. Find it fascinating.

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Originally Posted by Knoxville

I didn't say Putin was a nice guy, or that his actions aren't in many cases deplorable, quite the opposite. If you feel I've attempted to change the nature of the discussion then I sincerely apologise. As I said, I was attempting to provide context as much as anything. You kept mentioning Russia's track record of invading and occupying countries and their ambitions as a superpower. I was merely attempting to show that the UK and US have a similar track record and ambitions. Yet we plough huge amounts into our military year on year and it's seen as routine, even necessary, yet Putin lays out a plan to invest in Russia's military and suddenly Russia's planning to start WW3...



That all three have affected Russia directly does make them relevant in my opinion but as I said before, I'm not here to change the topic and if you feel bringing that into it would then fair enough.



I disagree to extent, mostly due to the fact that superior technology/fighting techniques and or greater numbers made invasions and occupations such as those possible but that gets us into a whole other discussion, several in fact! Modern day military occupations are a very different animal...

As I mentioned, I'm aware Putin is stirring nationalistic sentiments, he's been doing it for some time. I find it fairly distasteful as well, I find the mans actions in general to be extremely distasteful. But discussing that Russia's recent investment in the military isn't just about Putin and what he wants. Yes it plays into his hands, but there's a bigger picture to take into account.

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I am glad to see you agree on some points. The argument of western interference in what happened in the days of the USSR should be taken in context. If the Germans had not gone to war with the USSR then it's was almost certain that the USSR would have invaded Germany. WW2 would have started no matter which was to invade first. And the epic battle between socialism and national socialism was inevitable. The cold war was an effort to stop communism spreading by military force and deterrent. And if not for the USA we would be behind the iron curtain too regardless of how long it would last. It only dissipated, due to the economic pressure of the arms race.

Yes I understand that the UK and the US are both guilty of empire building but the British empire is part of history and was in decline before the first world war. As for America and war with it's neighbors, Mexico and Canada they were all new nations and these border disputes were inevitable. As for proxy wars around the time of the cold war, no one can say what would have happened if all of Asia were to fall under soviet rule. My guess is that the soviets would have looked to go west. We will never know I guess.

What we have now with the EU is the future no mater how flawed it is in it's present state. In the words of Angela Merkel

“Nobody should take for granted another 50 years of peace and prosperity in Europe. They are not for granted. That’s why I say: If the euro fails, Europe fails,”

Now, she was taking specifically about the single currency, but the elephant in the Euro room is about the aftermath. Nobody is more aware of this statement being true than Putin. He knows that the EU is still fragile, he will do what he can to rock the boat. Should it fail, I have no doubt if someone like Putin is in charge. Russia will take full advantage and peace in Europe will come to an end.

Modern day military occupations are a very different animal... as you say, but these wars and occupations are global skirmishes and nothing more. Sure they are devastating and horrendous for those caught up in it. But for global peace they don't have a large effect. A boarder dispute in Europe, especially between EU and Russian with the meat in the sandwich being Ukraine. Has the potential to wreck our peace.

That is why China and Russia should keep their noses out and if the majority of Ukrainians want to join the EU free trade agreement and later the EU, then that is their choice. Yanukovych was elected, and he said this was one of the points in his parties manifesto, if he was to then change his mind later, his government has little validity.

The felling in Ukraine is pro very Europe in the West of the country and indifference or pro Russian in the East and Crimea. With the vast overall majority being pro Europe. The situation in the Ukrainian parliament is crazy. With Yanukovych refusing to speak Ukrainian, and only speaks now in Russian. Street names and maps are rewritten in Russian. And pro Russian factions deface Ukrainian state symbols.

National TV states the protesters at about 57,000 total since the protests started. but the number is close to 1 million or about 2% of the total population.

Having said that, visits to the protest from people like John McCain are also provocative. And he and America should also keep his nose out. Here he is with the World Heavyweight champ Vitali Klitschko "Dr Ironfist" who is currently leader of the political opposition to Yanukovych.

I have watched all this unfold for a while. In Crimea, there are "presents" from the City of Moscow. A free trolley bus here and a Investment there.

In western Ukraine, American charity work and sponsorship.

Ukraine may move to civil war, It can't be ruled out! and if it does, poop will hit the fan! Most Ukrainians want the EU, and you can opt out of the EU at any time. That's the difference, once your county is in Putin's grip, there is no going back.

Like in Belarus, where Putin has won, and his pupets are in control... What happens next?? Persecution of Gay people http://www.rferl.org/content/belarus.../25196260.html

If this happens in Ukraine, then it will be gay people followed by ethnic Ukrainians that are targets.

But if Ukraine goes the way of the EU, all citizens will be equal whether Russian or Ukrainian. That is the difference between the two sides I am trying very hard to point out in this thread.

Do not let the west's questionable foreign policy cloud your judgement Putin's Russia allied with China is a world threat of the highest order.

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Originally Posted by j1979

By the way... You do know who my avatar is don't you?

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Didn't think that watching Japanese drama would actually be educational. [Reference: Biblia Koshodou no Jiken Techou Episode 9]
Don't have much to comment on the actual topic (I lack the information to form what I would consider a balanced view). The tone does seem as pretty alarmist, and remind me of that thread about "Muslims expansion" (paraphrased) from a while back now. Considering how much you seem to worry though I can't help but wonder if you can sleep at night ^^;

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Originally Posted by TooNice

Didn't think that watching Japanese drama would actually be educational. [Reference: Biblia Koshodou no Jiken Techou Episode 9]
Don't have much to comment on the actual topic (I lack the information to form what I would consider a balanced view). The tone does seem as pretty alarmist, and remind me of that thread about "Muslims expansion" (paraphrased) from a while back now. Considering how much you seem to worry though I can't help but wonder if you can sleep at night ^^;

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Yes Muslim expansion is another threat, and many people already agree with that. It has had much media attention but has no real place in this thread other than a mention. I would prefer to stick to the topic of the impending new army of a very Nationalistic Russia lead by a very dangerous man. I see no place for complacency with either issue.

Not sure what the Japanese reference is though.

It just so happened that the character in your avatar was mentioned in the Japanese drama I saw a few months back. So noticing it again was just an eureka moment.

Well, I disagreed with your threat assessment back then (and now), but I am pretty sure that we opted to amicably agreed to disagree.

For what it's worth, I think that the subsequent "Meds" comment was uncalled for. However the "Devil's advocate" post was well argued.

There *is* something about posts, which while filled with emotions, doesn't seem to persuasive (to me). Maybe it's because it's too one sided, or (seemingly) too alarmist (I think even you recognise that it can be seen as such since you have said "Call me paranoid if you like"). But if I had a genuine interest in the topic, I would probably be looking for (what I consider) a more balanced opinion.

At any rate, I will once again bet against your forecast if only because if you win, we'd be in too much crap for me to care, yet if I win, we are all better off ;) So, when do you expect the.. err... crap to really hit the fan? I acknowledge that the world is full of problems including armed conflicts and even more posturing by major world powers, but Armageddon (as in your depicted scenario) doesn't seem to have hit the largest economies of the world just yet.

I shall also retreat after this post, since right now I am more focussed in the chess being played in East-Asia, namely China, Taiwan, Japan, North/South Korea and of course the US of A and can't really contribute. I am holding a fairly neutral position so I will still lurk for the arguments being put forward though.

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Originally Posted by TooNice

It just so happened that the character in your avatar was mentioned in the Japanese drama I saw a few months back. So noticing it again was just an eureka moment.

Well, I disagreed with your threat assessment back then (and now), but I am pretty sure that we opted to amicably agreed to disagree.

For what it's worth, I think that the subsequent "Meds" comment was uncalled for. However the "Devil's advocate" post was well argued.

There *is* something about posts, which while filled with emotions, doesn't seem to persuasive (to me). Maybe it's because it's too one sided, or (seemingly) too alarmist (I think even you recognise that it can be seen as such since you have said "Call me paranoid if you like"). But if I had a genuine interest in the topic, I would probably be looking for (what I consider) a more balanced opinion.

At any rate, I will once again bet against your forecast if only because if you win, we'd be in too much crap for me to care, yet if I win, we are all better off ;) So, when do you expect the.. err... crap to really hit the fan? (I acknowledge that the world is full of problems and even more posturing, but Armageddon doesn't seem to have hit the largest economies of the world just yet)

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All fair points! on all, and for the record my views are to oppose anything that threatens a peaceful status quo. I was against many USUK military operations including Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. But I did see the failed logic behind why our governments wanted to act and recognise that much of it, is simply counties trying to protect their own.

I just see Putin as the wolf in sheeps clothing. Death and corruption follow him around but noting sticks. The western world leaders know it and so do his allies.

Anna Politkovskaya knew it and she wrote a book about it. (Putins Russia) Poor woman was shot dead by a mysterious killer outside her flat in Moscow. Who would want to kill her I wonder?

GW Bush was a nob and had lots of very bad publications done about him. The authors lives were never at risk though. Thats the difference, Putins Russia, a slow erosion of human rights. Those that speak out are silenced, where and when possible.

I love Russia and would love to see a complete EU with Russia included or at least in the trade agreement. We just need Putin out of the picture, his Russia is no democracy.

why do they do that? they are strong enough.

Cheburashka is or was quite a popular in Japan 10 years ago and I still still it around. I didn't know what it was called though and the only bit which stood out was what looked like pawka. So to me it's porker.