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Thread: Russia to build new super army! Ukraine, Human Rights and WW3

  1. #97
    The Old Fox csgohan4's Avatar
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

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    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by csgohan4 View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361908

    The separatists were said to have seized the Buk after overrunning a Ukrainian military base.

    However, Ukraine's Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema has cast doubt on this, telling local media on Friday: "The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems."

    Ukraine has called the disaster an "act of terrorism", blaming it on Russia who it says has been aiding the rebels in the conflict and supplying them with advanced weapons.

    "The Russians are done for. This is an international crime which must be investigated by the international tribunal in The Hague," Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said.
    It seems the Ukranians now say the Russians have supplied the Buk system,and its not the ones they have in the theatre.


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    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    It does appear the Buk system is quite complicated:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_mis...0_.22Uragan.22

    A standard Buk battalion consists of a command vehicle, target acquisition radar (TAR) vehicle, six transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) vehicles and three transporter erector launcher (TEL) vehicles.
    Although it appears the TELAR might be able to have limited functionality alone as a system,but I suspect with much reduced range.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 18-07-2014 at 01:08 PM.


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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    It seems the rebels have undermined their own credibility by playing the blame game given the increasing evidence against them. In the wider context, ie the conflict between Ukraine and the rebels, I would imagine these rebels will make poor government with their undermined legitimate claims for sovereignty.

    Also, it could put Putin in a ridiculous position where he is putting faith and military support to these rebels who appears to be out of control.

    The rebels could have managed the situation better by apologising straight away for an unfortunate error. Instead people may see the rebels as not being trustworthy or legitimate even by their supporters. It also adds to the Ukraine's argument that they are nothing more than terrorists.

    I'm not taking sides here - just saying what I think.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Oh dear HalloweenJack. Unless you can show those people are an actual part of current Russian special forces detachments,then what does that prove??

    Plus this:

    http://humanrightsinvestigations.org...aine-debunked/





    Plus this is what the BBC said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27104904

    No doubt there are Russians in Ukraine like Cossacks and the like.

    But are these Russian military people outside Crimea?


    The Guy at the top is gives the name as Alexander Mozheav (as per his Real or Fake passport)
    http://youtu.be/-QP6sM5VnUQ as uncovered by vice news.

    The guy at the bottom is Alexander Ganichev here is his purported VK page. http://vk.com/spets80


    Both are Russian, both have a beard, both give there name as Alexander, both say they fought in Chechnya, and both were highly likely, even if no longer, to be on the Russian military pay role.


    Here is the first, attack / seizure of a building in East Ukraine (Sloviansk) from where the original photo was taken. They are defiantly not volunteers or amateur. There is no 100% proof they are Russian special forces. But there is 0% proof any of them are Ukrainian.
    http://youtu.be/gLsLcgEhu1o

    Evgeny “Dingo” Ponomarev. His purported VK page http://vk.com/dingo31

    Him in Grozny, Chechnya 2008


    Him in Sloviansk 2014


    Again a Russian that fought in Chechnya as a professional soldier.

    Maybe all the prominent figures in East Ukraine are Chechnya veterans or maybe they are all still on the payroll... after all how have they been supporting themselves for the last 5 months? Someone must be funding and supplying them.

    Personally I am confident spetsnaz have been operating in Ukraine since the end of the USSR, and have been active in the current crisis, since it all started in November. Is there proof? Yes, there is hundreds of sources! Are people prepared to trust these sources, probably not.

    If they ever find conclusive proof of the missile... where, when and by whom. And it turns out to be either Russian supplied or stolen Ukrainian used by Russian citizens inside Ukraine or worse yet fired from inside Russia, then people should wake up to Putin and his very nationalistic Country.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    http://www.c-span.org/video/?320541-...airlines-crash


    Live security council meeting on cspan.

    edit:

    It's also on BBC news 24 as well.

    the intelligence is damning. The weapons and those operating the weapons (or training), are beyond reasonable doubt, Russian. Putin is being slated.
    Last edited by j1979; 18-07-2014 at 03:37 PM.

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  8. #103
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    The Russian Federation Ambassador putting the blame on the Ukrainian forces, sure, they shoot thins down just as they are leaving their airspace right.....
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    Good link j1979, thanks.. watching now.
    The problem is "The West" and NATO are beginning to look weak now. Questions will be circulating when will NATO actually do anything at all.
    It's worth saying again, that hundreds of innocent civilizans were killed of which the majority were citizens of NATO countries amongst them were eighty children as well as Western ally nation civilians such as Australians/New Zealander plus the Malaysians and Indonesians. To be honest, all that has happened so far is a cosy chat between Obama and Putin and the usual verbal diahorrea at the UN.

    It is highly likely that the rebels/cossacks with a BUK type anti-aircraft system were responsible. Maybe the US should release intel(spy satellite footage/images amongst other sources) confirming this.
    Obviously Obama will decide what happens (e.g. not much), but NATO could easily justify conducting tactical airstrikes against the anti-air systems used by the rebels/cossacks in east Ukraine to secure the airspace. Putin likes to flex his muscles, maybe it's time NATO gave him a bloody nose.

    If we are honest with ourselves if there were 189 US citizens on MH17 and not 189 Dutch citizens, I would be willing to bet the NATO bombs would already be falling on rebel/cossack positions (No offence to any Americans or Dutch).
    Last edited by The Hand; 18-07-2014 at 09:33 PM. Reason: typo

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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hand View Post
    Good link j1979, thanks.. watching now.
    The problem is "The West" and NATO are beginning to look weak now. Questions will be circulating when will NATO actually do anything at all.
    It's worth saying again, that hundreds of innocent civilizans were killed of which the majority were citizens of NATO countries amongst them were eighty children as well as Western ally nation civilians such as Australians/New Zealander plus the Malaysians and Indonesians. To be honest, all that has happened so far is a cosy chat between Obama and Putin and the usual verbal diahorrea at the UN.

    It is highly likely that the rebels/cossacks with a BUK type anti-aircraft sysytem were responsible. Maybe the US should release intel(spy satellite footage/images amongst other sources) confirming this.
    Obviously Obama will decide what happens (e.g. not much), but NATO could easily justify conducting tactical airstrikes against the anti-air systems used by the rebels/cossacks in east Ukraine to secure the airspace. Putin likes to flex his muscles, maybe it's time NATO gave him a bloody nose.

    If we are honest with ourselves if there were 189 US citizens on MH17 and not 189 Dutch citizens, I would be willing bet the NATO bombs would already be falling on rebel/cossack positions (No offence to any Americans or Dutch).
    I think we should be a little slower to resort to bombing people, even if it were a practical option and I'm not convinced of that, and at the very least, wait until we are sure who did what. And, of course, it'd be nice to be sure we bomb the right people, if we bomb anyone.

    So, bearing in mind this is all only 24 hours old, let's take a breath and think it through. If, as seems likely, it's pro-Russian rebels at fault, and especially if, as seems possible, they're Putin-supported, there MIGHT be scope for some resolution that gets everyone to the negotiating table. I can't think of a better memorial to those on that plane than it being the final act of insanity that brought peace to the area. It's surely at least worth a try, rather than lobbing in missiles that often won't be killing the guilty.

    And, we can always revert to any such military options as exist, if nothing better proves to work.

    I certainly don't believe all of Putin's claims, but the other side were awfully damn quick to be blaming Putin. I'm more inclined to think some idiot of a local commander got trigger happy, and probably just assumed civilian jets wouldn't be in conflict airspace when missiles were flying.

    To be honest, I assumed that myself. And one of the questions that needs an answer is why Malaysian Airlines, and apparently quite a few others, hadn't diverted their routes just in case. I'll bet it comes down to saving a few quid in fuel costs.

    Anyway, right now, I'm discounting about 80% of the claims of both sides.

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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    What a disastrous year for Malaysia Airline. I know at least one person who blames it (and other airlines) for failing to avoid the airspace of a war zone until disaster struck. Personally I think the outrage is rather misdirected, but two flight related tragedies in half a year for a single airline can't look good.

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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    What a disastrous year for Malaysia Airline. I know at least one person who blames it (and other airlines) for failing to avoid the airspace of a war zone until disaster struck. Personally I think the outrage is rather misdirected, but two flight related tragedies in half a year for a single airline can't look good.
    The Kremlin are saying (via a mystery Malaysian airlines employee) that a Ukrainian air traffic controller, told the flight to divert closer to the conflict zone and told it to lower it's altitude to 20,000 FT.

    If you want to see the Russian BS machine in full flow switch to Russia Today on freeview or on RT.com

    Get ready for some major Kremlin deception possibly involving the flight recorder.

    The Russians just keep digging a bigger and bigger hole.

  13. #108
    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    It seems the rebels have undermined their own credibility by playing the blame game given the increasing evidence against them. In the wider context, ie the conflict between Ukraine and the rebels, I would imagine these rebels will make poor government with their undermined legitimate claims for sovereignty.

    Also, it could put Putin in a ridiculous position where he is putting faith and military support to these rebels who appears to be out of control.

    The rebels could have managed the situation better by apologising straight away for an unfortunate error. Instead people may see the rebels as not being trustworthy or legitimate even by their supporters. It also adds to the Ukraine's argument that they are nothing more than terrorists.

    I'm not taking sides here - just saying what I think.
    Pretty succinct analysis - and if current reports that the rebels are destroying evidence at the crash site, it undermines the credibility of their denial even more.
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    I find the this whole situation (right back to Russia annexing the Crimea) pitiful. I won't take sides but it is obvious that Russia is doing what it wants and no one in Europe or the US is willing to do anything useful to put an end to it. The sanctions are pointless. I remember studying causes of the Second World War.

    The world refused to stand up to Nazi Germany until it was too late. The League of Nations was an absolute waste of time (a bit like the UN). The Italians invaded Abyssinia and the LoN did nothing bar some silly sanctions. I see quite a few parallels with what is happening now. Happy to invade Iraq for oil (tin-foil hat) but willing to do nothing when Russia annexes sovereign Ukraine territory and supplies weapons to shoot down a plan carrying 287? civilians (majority of whom belong to NATO countries). US does what? Steps up sanctions. Europe? Nothing. NATO? Nothing. UN? Nothing.

    It is obvious that the current systems in place are all show and bluster. World message being sent out? Do what you like, we won't, can't or are un-willing )all 3) to stop you.
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    What are the facts thus far?

    • A plane crashed on rebel controlled territory
    • Ukraine has not yet published air traffic control data
    • Rebels shot down aeroplanes in the run up


    Aside from those, do we have any other evidence as to what shot down the plane? How high was the plane actually flying when it was hit? Can the alleged BUK system shoot down a plane at 33,000 feet travelling at 550mph?

    Who operated the BUK system? These things are incredibly complex to operate, requires a whole team of trained individuals, requires several different vehicles, i doubt the rebels could have operated this BUK system unless the Russians trained them. Maybe the russians operated the BUK system, maybe former Ukrainian army? Which makes me believe this was no error if it was actually shot down by the BUK system as they would be highly trained individuals, it's not a simple point and shoot rocket.

    There are a lot of rumours being circulated but the fact is we know very little at this moment and until there is some concrete evidence suggesting the rebels/russians shot down the aeroplane there will be no action from any party.

    I personally feel the Ukraine government has the most to gain from this, they have had little to no help from the West but a scenario where rebels killed innocent NATO members would surely bring in some help.

    Russia do not gain anything, neither do the rebels, it doesn't help their cause.

    Either way, we actually know very little and it seems we will probably never know for sure.

  16. #111
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DeludedGuy View Post
    What are the facts thus far?

    • A plane crashed on rebel controlled territory
    • Ukraine has not yet published air traffic control data
    • Rebels shot down aeroplanes in the run up


    Aside from those, do we have any other evidence as to what shot down the plane? How high was the plane actually flying when it was hit? Can the alleged BUK system shoot down a plane at 33,000 feet travelling at 550mph?

    Who operated the BUK system? These things are incredibly complex to operate, requires a whole team of trained individuals, requires several different vehicles, i doubt the rebels could have operated this BUK system unless the Russians trained them. Maybe the russians operated the BUK system, maybe former Ukrainian army? Which makes me believe this was no error if it was actually shot down by the BUK system as they would be highly trained individuals, it's not a simple point and shoot rocket.

    There are a lot of rumours being circulated but the fact is we know very little at this moment and until there is some concrete evidence suggesting the rebels/russians shot down the aeroplane there will be no action from any party.

    I personally feel the Ukraine government has the most to gain from this, they have had little to no help from the West but a scenario where rebels killed innocent NATO members would surely bring in some help.

    Russia do not gain anything, neither do the rebels, it doesn't help their cause.

    Either way, we actually know very little and it seems we will probably never know for sure.
    The question about who gains from this is dependent upon intention and good judgement. A mistake or poor judgement would render this question almost entirely moot.

    As concerns the question of system complexity, even with the required training/coordination required to operate the BUK system (or any other), one should never underestimate the power of human error.
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    Re: MH flight shot down over Ukraine

    It is likely that the rebels/cossacks are responsible.

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