Court of Appeal reverses ruling over Muslim dress

[nichomach]

1) I personally have no objection, although I would rather that my daughter went to a school with a mix of faiths and ethnicities. I think it's healthier to have exposure to other ideas rather than to be insular, and as long as a school has respect for our convictions as well as other peoples' then why not? Obviously Shabina Begum felt the same way, since she wanted to attend a mixed faith school, but wanted her religious convictions to be respected.

2) What some Muslims do in other countries isn't really relevant; but in some cases yes, in others no. I am far more concerned with whether we treat other people with respect and consideration.

[Kumagoro]

I thought i read that this school already has an agreed uniform for muslim girls and that she wasnt happy with it. So how many uniforms are allowed then? why should someones
religious constraints be more important than if you think you look like a tit in your uniform and you want a different one?

[piggeh]

Surely having a school of only one faith is discriminatory?

Anyway, I agree with the ruling, as it is doing no harm to wear muslim dress, but then it doesnt harm anyone for other pupils to wear what they want, unless for some reason it is offensive (slogans, etc). So really they should be allowed to wear what they want - they do in America dont they (at least in the movies!)?

[nichomach]

I thought i read that this school already has an agreed uniform for muslim girls and that she wasnt happy with it. So how many uniforms are allowed then? why should someones
religious constraints be more important than if you think you look like a tit in your uniform and you want a different one?

First point, yes, they had a uniform which the majority of Muslims felt satisfied the requirement for modest dress. However, a great many British Muslims disagree. The CofA's ruling means that all Muslims can participate in state education. I can only regard that as a good thing. Much better than telling them "well go to another school then".
As to "why..." if cosmetic considerations are the same as religious convictions in your book, then you're really not going to get it are you?

[nichomach]

Surely having a school of only one faith is discriminatory?

It depends; since ANY faith may establish schools (there are Jewish, Muslim, Anglican and Roman Catholic schools for starters) then it's arguable that there isn't discrimination.

Anyway, I agree with the ruling, as it is doing no harm to wear muslim dress, but then it doesnt harm anyone for other pupils to wear what they want, unless for some reason it is offensive (slogans, etc). So really they should be allowed to wear what they want - they do in America dont they (at least in the movies!)?

That's a very respectable view; personally, I feel that it should be down to the individual school in consultation with the parents to determine whether a uniform is required, but if it is, when they determine what it is, they should have regard to the fact that some people may be religiously obliged to observe a standard of dress. Consequently, if they DO adopt a uniform, there should be sufficient flexibility in it to accomodate that.

[Kumagoro]

If something is important to you then whose to say its any less important than whats important to someone else. What if what this girl wants is not enough for someone else
do they just keep on having different uniforms made up where do you draw the line.
Like someone else said before why cant they dress up like a jedi.

[poindextermatic]

If something is important to you then whose to say its any less important than whats important to someone else. What if what this girl wants is not enough for someone else
do they just keep on having different uniforms made up where do you draw the line.
Like someone else said before why cant they dress up like a jedi.

I agree.

(isn't Jedi classed as a religion now after the last census?)

[Galant]

The school's right to require a uniform should be upeld and empowered. The girl should have right to dress modestly - cover her legs and head if need be, but she should e required to wear a uniform - simply a modest one. If the uniform needs changing to allow for modest additions (pants for girls, head scarves etc.) then do so. If the girl does not want to comply, then she can choose another school.

[nichomach]

So you're forcing your definition of modest on her or anyone like her, and she can conform to your standard or get out of state education. As opposed to adjusting the school uniform so that it accomodates a jilbab in the school colours or with the school badge in the same way as it accomodates headscarves, or yarmulkahs or turbans or the shalwar kameez. You and the French should get along famously.

[nichomach]

If something is important to you then whose to say its any less important than whats important to someone else. What if what this girl wants is not enough for someone else
do they just keep on having different uniforms made up where do you draw the line.
Like someone else said before why cant they dress up like a jedi.

Why do you need to draw a line in the first place? Why shouldn't a state school which is supposed to be accessible to all do its best to accomodate all faiths or people of no faith?

[Galant]

So you're forcing your definition of modest on her or anyone like her, and she can conform to your standard or get out of state education. As opposed to adjusting the school uniform so that it accomodates a jilbab in the school colours or with the school badge in the same way as it accomodates headscarves, or yarmulkahs or turbans or the shalwar kameez. You and the French should get along famously.

No actually I'm not. I was saying what you're saying that the uniform an be adapted to meet modesty requirements, as long as it remains a uniform. The school should not be forced to drop it's uniform standards and allow her to ditch it for her reasons. Put a badge on the outfit, or allow her to wear longer skirts. Select colour patterning whatever. It should not be said that people can where whatever they want.

[Kumagoro]

I dont think that people should be allowed to wear what they want anyway im just saying that if she gets to wear something thats suits her sensibilities then then everyone should regardless of religious reasons. Say it was a yashmak it could impede you doing things. Does that mean she has the right not to participate in sports and PE. hahah how many people did you know at school who would accidently on purpose forget their kit. What about science you would have to watch out for those bunsens a lot more.

[[GSV]Trig]

isn't Jedi classed as a religion now after the last census?

Not AFAIK as there is no religeous leader/figure...

[poindextermatic]

Not AFAIK as there is no religeous leader/figure...

Look no further my young apprentice.... you are strong in the darkside... join me.... togeather we can crush the rebels....

[Rave]

Right. My personal take on this is that it's a state school, paid for with taxes including mine, and so since I'm paying for their education, my kids (should I have any) should be allowed to wear what they like to school. I fully intend to invoke the ECHR to this effect if/when my kids reach school age, although knowing my luck my kids will probably grow up to be squares who have no objection to wearing a school uniform.

Rich :¬)

[nichomach]

No actually I'm not. I was saying what you're saying that the uniform an be adapted to meet modesty requirements, as long as it remains a uniform. The school should not be forced to drop it's uniform standards and allow her to ditch it for her reasons. Put a badge on the outfit, or allow her to wear longer skirts. Select colour patterning whatever. It should not be said that people can where whatever they want.

Which is precisely what both I and the Court of Appeal have proposed; a school should be able to require a uniform, but when they do, they must have regard to a pupil's Article 9 rights. So, a jilbab in school colours or bearing a school badge would satisfy you, me, her AND the Court of Appeal, wouldn't it?