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Thread: Court of Appeal reverses ruling over Muslim dress

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    Quote Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig
    Not AFAIK as there is no religeous leader/figure...
    No, they were mostly wiped out in the Clone Wars, though some say that at least one escaped to Tatooine...

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    Quote Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig
    Not AFAIK as there is no religeous leader/figure...
    oh great so now if you are in a religions i has to have a leader/figure?

    What happens if you religion treats everyone as equal?
    Twigman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twigman
    oh great so now if you are in a religions i has to have a leader/figure?

    What happens if you religion treats everyone as equal?
    No one is equal.

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    why can't we copy the french? banning all religious symbols in state schools. religious schools can still exist, and this young woman can go to a muslim school if she wishes to wear such clothes.

    on the other hand, what is the purpose of a uniform? it doesn't stop bullying over clothes and it makes identification useless because with a few modifications as you walk out the school gate you're anonymous again.



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    Agent of the System ikonia's Avatar
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    I am fed up to the back teeth of minority england.

    I am fed up of hearing do-gooding people and equal rights people take the joy out of life.

    You attend a school - there is a uniform, if it cant accomodate your religious dress code, choose another school.
    At christmas.....if the school wants to put on a play about the birth of Christ - let them, your child doesn't have to attend it, you as a "good parent" can segregate your child and make it not fit in by forcing this sort of hogwash on people.

    I'm will now follow the official religion of the Jedi knight, I will use the right to wear my long hooded cloak to all social functions.

    The play in Birmingham that contained muslim actors which was stormed, because it was offensive to muslims....then don't go and watch it. If you can't take it for what it is "a play" then you don't deserve a place in socitiy.

    I can almost read the headline now, if a load of white guys stormed a Bollywood film premier

    utter rubbish
    It is Inevitable.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by ikonia
    I am fed up to the back teeth of minority england.

    I am fed up of hearing do-gooding people and equal rights people take the joy out of life.

    You attend a school - there is a uniform, if it cant accomodate your religious dress code, choose another school.
    At christmas.....if the school wants to put on a play about the birth of Christ - let them, your child doesn't have to attend it, you as a "good parent" can segregate your child and make it not fit in by forcing this sort of hogwash on people.

    I'm will now follow the official religion of the Jedi knight, I will use the right to wear my long hooded cloak to all social functions.

    The play in Birmingham that contained muslim actors which was stormed, because it was offensive to muslims....then don't go and watch it. If you can't take it for what it is "a play" then you don't deserve a place in socitiy.

    I can almost read the headline now, if a load of white guys stormed a Bollywood film premier

    utter rubbish

    Well said mate - annoys the hell out of me too!
    They would hang you by your meat and two veg if you told THEM they couldn't do somthing... should we give into them because they threaten us from behind their religion??
    Freedom of speech - does not exist for them....
    Wow - this thread is getting tense....
    Last edited by poindextermatic; 06-03-2005 at 01:11 AM.

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    I have not read all the posts in this thread, it's late and I'm at work. But it will add my 2 pence.

    I actually think there are many benefits to school uniform. Firstly, there is nothing wrong in my eyes with a bit of discipline in schools. This is something that is sadly lacking these days. School uniforms are not the complete solution to this, but can play a part in helping. They are children at the end of the day and children need boundaries in behavior and conduct if the are to feel safe, valued and be behaviorally balanced. I used to hate uniforms in schools, but now I have studied child psychology i understand the principles and thought process behind it. This does (should) not rule out children being valued as individuals. Anyone who thinks wearing a uniform devalues the concept of individualism sadly does not fully understand what being an individual really means and is probably one of the ironic Slipknot tee-shirt crowd. Kids in school wear uniforms for completely different reasons to someone in the forces. The other reason uniforms have a benefit is that they help make everyone equal. I.e no rich kids looking bling and poor working class kids in cheap cloths. There should be less of a class divide and the children should judge each other less. Outside of school and when they become adults it a completely different mater then of course. There are many things i don't like about uniforms, but it's not an ideal world. I just don't think some people here don't understand why they have them and what benefits can be had. It's not tradition for traditions sake.

    Ok, back the specific mater of religious observance in schools. I really can't see why this has become such and issue. Why can't they have different versions of the same uniform, slightly modified to suit the needs of each religious requirement? It all seems a bit OTT to me. That would be a simply and fair solution, surely?

    Personally i hate religion, but people do have a right to practice and believe what they want. There is no reason we can't be flexible while maintaining the concept of school uniforms, as i believe the school in question did. But no one should be treated as something special. We are all equals.
    Last edited by autopilot; 06-03-2005 at 01:59 AM.

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    Yeah, but how far do you take it? E.g. everybody has a different item of unifrom to suit their needs...what if one religion is offended by the others and wearing whatever item offends them. Say the item is gold - that would be some 'bling' and then all the other kids would feel left out... as I've already said, the world is going PC crazy... it seems England is taking it too far....
    For your reasons mentioned, yes uniform IS a good idea, but start individualising it and becomes somthing else...i.e. not a uniform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poindextermatic
    Yeah, but how far do you take it? E.g. everybody has a different item of unifrom to suit their needs...what if one religion is offended by the others and wearing whatever item offends them. Say the item is gold - that would be some 'bling' and then all the other kids would feel left out... as I've already said, the world is going PC crazy... it seems England is taking it too far....
    For your reasons mentioned, yes uniform IS a good idea, but start individualising it and becomes somthing else...i.e. not a uniform.
    Article 9 is quite clear; you're allowed to practice your own religion in public or private so long as you don't infringe other peoples' rights; so this girl would be allowed to wear a jilbab (and a uniform code could easily be expanded to include a jilbab in school colours or bearing a school badge), but she would not be allowed to prevent someone else wearing an item of clothing with which she disagreed. It's worth bearing in mind that neither she, nor anyone else has sought to do that.

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    Will work for beer... nichomach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poindextermatic
    Well said mate - annoys the hell out of me too!
    They would hang you by your meat and two veg if you told THEM they couldn't do somthing... should we give into them because they threaten us from behind their religion??
    Freedom of speech - does not exist for them....
    Wow - this thread is getting tense....
    Actually, freedom of speech is one of the rights protected by the ECHR as well. Oh, and nobody "stormed" a play; there were just a lot of protests and the theatre decided to relocate it (a decision with which I disagree, as it happens, but still...), so stop drama-queening it. And this girl isn't threatening anyone.

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    Senior Member RVF500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nichomach
    No, she doesn't. They get to wear clothes that satisfy the requirements of their faiths (or lack thereof) and so does she. Being equal is not the same as being identical.
    For some reason I'm thinking of the line from 'Animal farm'

    'All animals are equal - but some animals are more equal than others'

    If it's not word perfect I'll let someone more anal to correct it. However, funny thing is that Bliar was on the news saying he was concerned about the scaremongering in Britain. How kindergarten teachers are afraid to let kids in the playground if it's wet incase one slips and they face a legal case.

    Speaking to The Observer, amid a flurry of personal appearances, TV interviews and speeches in Labour's pre-election campaign, Mr Blair said he had been struck by the number of people raising concerns about the "compensation culture".

    And he said he was concerned about the country wasting disproportionate amounts of money dealing with relatively insignificant problems, simply because a scare has been whipped up around them.
    C'monnnnn, who the hell does he think he's kidding? He's the biggest scaremonger of the lot. WMDs ready in 40 minutes anyone? The Blair Witch has made a few quid out of the legislation his mob have rammed through too. The legislation that has led inexorably to the very culture he's now moaning about.

    And who was behind the successful appeal of this young girl?

    Also, I have a 16 year old daughter myself and somehow I don't believe that this has sprung from the girl herself. I get the distinctly uneasy feeling she is nothing more than a pawn and is being used.

    The human rights act is a mess. It is doing nothing more than promoting the good of individuals over the greater good of the majority. Not sure that this thread is a particularly good example. Maybe another thread. But I'm sure you get my drift.

    I agree with nicho on one point. This girl isn't threatening anyone. Directly. The thing that bothers me is that other young people may be pushed against their will by either zealous parents or peer pressure to do the same thing. I understand that there have been incidents of more extreme individuals trying to exert this pressure already.

    As for freedom of speech. I believe freedom of speech is to be free say what you believe or think. Thing is, if someone else doesn't agree with what you believe or think and makes a big enough fuss then you get gagged. Or worse. The media are a prime example. As soon as someone says something they don't like that person is pilloried in print until they are forced to back down. But they will say what they want about an individual citing. You guessed it. Freedom of speech. Let's face it. It's hard to say much of anything without offending someone somewhere. Freedom of speech? Do me a favour. We don't have freedom of speech. Not in it's truest form.
    Last edited by RVF500; 06-03-2005 at 11:31 AM.
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    Right there should be a really strict uniform that everyone should comply too. It isnt hard. If you dont want to dont go to school...then round up all the kids not at school and kick them, out the country because they are the next generation of chavs.
    There we go. solves all the problems .




    Yes I know thats harsh...but it would be good....you have to admit that...
    Twigman

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    If good=racist, xenophobic idiocy, then yes. Otherwise no.

    edit: Oh, and by the way, most of the chavs I've seen have had three things in common - they're young, stupid and white. So I don't think that excluding Muslims from state schools will help curtail their breeding much.
    Last edited by nichomach; 06-03-2005 at 02:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    For some reason I'm thinking of the line from 'Animal farm'

    'All animals are equal - but some animals are more equal than others'
    Firstly, it's interesting to note that you rely upon the writing of a confirmed Socialist to back your arguments RVF...

    And by denying this girl the right to conform to her faith you make anyone else who can conform to theirs more equal than her.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    And who was behind the successful appeal of this young girl?
    The European Convention on Human Rights as applied by the Human Rights Act.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Also, I have a 16 year old daughter myself and somehow I don't believe that this has sprung from the girl herself. I get the distinctly uneasy feeling she is nothing more than a pawn and is being used.
    Given that she's been standing up in front of the press and calmly and eloquently arguing her case, then you don't actually have any evidence to support that, do you? Is it too much to suppose that she might have a faith and wish to dress and act in accordance with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    The human rights act is a mess. It is doing nothing more than promoting the good of individuals over the greater good of the majority. Not sure that this thread is a particularly good example. Maybe another thread. But I'm sure you get my drift.
    Your drift is wrong - actually, the HRA doesn't say very much at all; it merely enacts the ECHR, and frankly, a democracy isn't just about giving the majority everything they want. We've seen that sort of government in National Socialist Germany for a start. Democracy is as much about protecting the minority from the "tyranny of the majority" as about the will of the majority - if I may quote John Stuart Mill on the subject:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mill "On Liberty"
    Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant — society collectively over the separate individuals who compose it — its means of tyrannizing are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough; there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling, against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development and, if possible, prevent the formation of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence; and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs as protection against political despotism.
    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    I agree with nicho on one point. This girl isn't threatening anyone. Directly. The thing that bothers me is that other young people may be pushed against their will by either zealous parents or peer pressure to do the same thing. I understand that there have been incidents of more extreme individuals trying to exert this pressure already.
    So your view is that this girl's religious freedom should be curtailed because of the misdeeds of a few people with whom she has no association and over whom she has no control. A few Catholics are members of the IRA, so we should close all Roman Catholic churches and schools and ban their faith? Forbid the display of rosaries in public perhaps? She isn't threatening anyone. If other people are acting badly, then we should deal with them, not pretend that we're addressing the problem by oppressing her.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    As for freedom of speech. I believe freedom of speech is to be free say what you believe or think. Thing is, if someone else doesn't agree with what you believe or think and makes a big enough fuss then you get gagged.
    Actually, no, you don't, unless what you are doing is promoting racial hatred or advocating violence towards people. Then you get gagged, as Abu Hamza found to his discomfort. Oh, but then that would be action that THIS government took, so we have to ignore that, don't we? .

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Or worse. The media are a prime example. As soon as someone says something they don't like that person is pilloried in print until they are forced to back down.
    Yes, that's democracy - you get to say what you want, and if other people think you're wrong or being an idiot, they tell you so.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    But they will say what they want about an individual citing. You guessed it. Freedom of speech.
    And if what they say is untrue, then the person has the option of going to the Press Complaints Commission or suing. Actually, I think that the latter option should be made easier for individuals to pursue, but the law is there already.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Let's face it. It's hard to say much of anything without offending someone somewhere. Freedom of speech? Do me a favour. We don't have freedom of speech. Not in it's truest form.
    Actually, we do. We have complete freedom to say what we want, so long as what we say doesn't threaten other people or public safety. You can't be gagged just because somebody might find what you say offensive. You might not get as big an audience as you'd like, but then that may well be an indication that people don't actually agree with you.

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    Senior Member RVF500's Avatar
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    Let's not forget that racism works both ways. We only ever see the one side published. A great deal of effort goes into stamping it out. The latest drive being against racism against black footballers. And rightly so. The downside is that as soon as you make an argument against someone who is black/asian etc. it is very quick and easy to play the racism card. The other downside is that because of media direction people who are victims of racism who are not black/asian are overlooked.

    I also happen to agree that people of any race, creed or colour are free to come to this country (given that they are here to be useful members of our society) and if they don't like it here, are equally free to leave. The overriding effort though seems to be to change the majority to suit the minority. Why does there not seem to be so great an effort to integrate the minority with the majority? Why does it always seem that the incumbant population is called upon to be tolerant and make accomodation to the point that laws are passed to make sure of it, yet the minority appears to be able to behave just as they wish? Now if that makes me racist or xenophobic then fine. That's what I think. Read: freedom of speech.

    Let me give an example. Recently peak district ranger led walks were under threat of closure because the majority of custom was middle aged middle class white people. The parks authority wanted to attract more young ethnic minorities. There was an outcry but mostly from the park rangers themselves. Now, let's turn that on it's head a bit. Say the majority of users were middle aged middle class black or asian people. Say the same was done to attract young white people. Well, it wouldn't happen, would it? The outcry would reach the highest levels.

    What I'm saying is there is no balance. None. That in itself breeds discontent and resentment. A sense of unfairness. One thing as a nation we still seem to hold in great esteem is fair play. Something that has run through this thread is 'why should this girl be treated differently?'. It's not fair on the other kids. A sense of preferential treatment. Whether that's a fair label or not makes no difference. Isn't that what prejudice is all about? a perception of difference, a perceived threat. It doesn't have to be real or a point of law. It just has to exist.

    Once again, if this viewpoint makes me a racist; see above.
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    Will work for beer... nichomach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Let's not forget that racism works both ways. We only ever see the one side published. A great deal of effort goes into stamping it out. The latest drive being against racism against black footballers. And rightly so. The downside is that as soon as you make an argument against someone who is black/asian etc. it is very quick and easy to play the racism card. The other downside is that because of media direction people who are victims of racism who are not black/asian are overlooked.
    I accept that this can be a problem; but it's hardly relevant here. This isn't a race question, but one of the tolerance of differing beliefs or faiths. A white Muslim girl (yes, they do happen you know...) would face exactly the same issue were she to believe that modesty required the wearing of a jilbab. "playing the race card" is something that DOES happen, and no-one likes it. My wife's been on the wrong end of it before now when an Asian student's got a grade that they don't like, for instance; she has pretty direct experience of it. That said, the vast majority of her non-white students are no problem, and as far as the case of Shabina Begum is concerned, I've discussed it with her and she agrees with me completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    I also happen to agree that people of any race, creed or colour are free to come to this country (given that they are here to be useful members of our society) and if they don't like it here, are equally free to leave. The overriding effort though seems to be to change the majority to suit the minority.
    Shabina Begum isn't trying to change the majority at all; rather she wants to protect her freedom to not have the majority force change on her.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Why does there not seem to be so great an effort to integrate the minority with the majority?
    I'd havce said that attempting to ensure that people of any faith may attend a state school is actually quite a good example of integration of minorities, whereas banning anyone who believes that they must dress more modestly from state education is a good example of segregation and ghettoisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Why does it always seem that the incumbant population is called upon to be tolerant and make accomodation to the point that laws are passed to make sure of it, yet the minority appears to be able to behave just as they wish?
    Because the nature of society is that the majority already have pretty much everything they want anyway. The prevalent majority in this country for instance are either atheist, agnostic or perhaps Christian. Whichever, the uniform code currently satisfies them perfectly well; no tolerance or protection for them is required, since (effectively) they got to set up the system in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Now if that makes me racist or xenophobic then fine. That's what I think. Read: freedom of speech.
    I don't think it does; I think you're mistaken in a few assumptions, and I think you've failed to take account of the extent to which the majority already have the system set up to favour them to start with, but that doesn't mean I think you're racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Let me give an example. Recently peak district ranger led walks were under threat of closure because the majority of custom was middle aged middle class white people. The parks authority wanted to attract more young ethnic minorities. There was an outcry but mostly from the park rangers themselves. Now, let's turn that on it's head a bit. Say the majority of users were middle aged middle class black or asian people. Say the same was done to attract young white people. Well, it wouldn't happen, would it? The outcry would reach the highest levels.
    Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a reference for that. The mere fact of wishing to attract more people from ethnic minorities wouldn't lead to a threat of closure for ranger-led walks by any sort of logical extension, so I'd like to see the details.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    What I'm saying is there is no balance. None. That in itself breeds discontent and resentment. A sense of unfairness.
    Actually, I'd say that you need to look at where the balance currently is. The system works well enough for Christian, atheist or agnostic kids, but it starts from the position of "this is the uniform and we'll allow one minor variation that satisfies some Muslims, now conform to it or get out", and has no real regard for differences of faith or conscience. If you start with the balance tilted way, way over in favour of forcing conformance with the majority, then there will be tension when a member of a minority wants their fath or convictions to be tolerated.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    One thing as a nation we still seem to hold in great esteem is fair play. Something that has run through this thread is 'why should this girl be treated differently?'. It's not fair on the other kids. A sense of preferential treatment.
    She's not; she's merely asking for the same freedom that the other kids (by reason of belonging to the prevalent majority) get as a matter of course. That of dressing in accordance with her own faith or lack of faith. That isn't preferential treatment, that's equal treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Whether that's a fair label or not makes no difference.
    It makes a lot of difference; it IS an unfair label and one that reveals an underlying culture of intolerance towards anyone who differs in faith or custom from the prevalent majority, and a desire to either stamp that out by enforced conformance or by exclusion from the facilities that the prevalent majority takes for granted. See Mill, above.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Isn't that what prejudice is all about? a perception of difference, a perceived threat. It doesn't have to be real or a point of law. It just has to exist.
    Prejudice is more than a perception of difference; it's a desire to reject, exclude or denigrate anyone displaying that difference, and that's precisely what comes through a lot of the "conform or get out" posts seen in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Once again, if this viewpoint makes me a racist; see above.
    Actually, I just think it just makes you mistaken, but honestly so, and mistaken without malice, if you will.

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