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Thread: Martin determined to return home....

  1. #33
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    Zathras
    I think you live in a bowl of cotton wool. One day soon take a walk into the dole office or go to a court at aboot 09:30 - 09:45 and you will see the vermin thats lurks in ur wee world.

    At least in Nigeria you know where u stand here the laws are so old that the victim loses big time.

    Bottom line you break the law here, only the truly good citzens have remorse for their crimes. As for the repeat offenders its a way of life, if the punishment was more in line with the crime then maybe the crimes would not be committed and people would be able to get on with their lives without fear. I for one will not let anyone demean my standard of living what ever the law.

    Tan

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    Tanman, I think you're making presumptions about me that are completely false. I've done jury service, I've seen plenty of people on the dole, my grandfather has lived on the roughest estate in Lancashire for all his life thankyou very much. Don't try to preach to me about how bad people can be.

    I for one will not let anyone demean my standard of living what ever the law
    Well if you break the law "protecting" your standard of living completely contrary to the law and the legal system of this country decides to demean your standard of living and throw you in prison, I'll certainly have no sympathy.

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    Zathras
    So for me not to make presumptions about you

    You see someone has broken into your house and has violated your partner had their way with your kids, ripped out your hard drive & stole your best cd and are leaving thru the backdoor

    Do you

    Use what ever you have to take this person into custody bearing in mind this person will only stop once they or you are no longer in a fit state to continue.

    or

    Phone the police and let the law take its course

    Scene two

    The same person who has been all over the news and has done many bad things to people and their households is knocking on your door

    do you

    Use what ever you have to take this person into custody bearing in mind this person will only stop once they or you are no longer in a fit state to continue

    or

    phone the police and let the law take its course & or flee your house


    Tan

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    Registered+ Zathras's Avatar
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    In the first scenario I take reasonable action to apprehend them. This does not extend to beating the living daylights once I have apprehended them, nor does it extend to shooting them in the back as they are leaving. This is exactly what the law allows me to do. If in the process of apprehending them I am required to use lethal force to defend myself, I am perfectly entitled to do so.

    In the second scenario, I call the police.

    Not difficult and I would imagine this is exactly the action that most members of the board would take.

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    Zathras: I appologise for my incorrect facts. I haven't been strictly following the story, and it was me trying to remember stuff.

    But still its not just this case, or the exact facts which matter, as I'm sure you can see, its the matters which arise from it.

    And tbqh, if i were in the first scenario I'm pretty sure id beat seven shades of **** out of the person who did that. And probably try for a couple more shades after that. And I'm saying that now, when im completely calm and without just reason to. In a fit of rage people do some very rash things without thinking.

    I do think though, that there is a whole world of difference between rape and assualt etc, and theft. Imo, rapists and such utter scum dont deserve to live, and they might as well have never been born. However, theives generally dont do it because they want to, more that they need to or have been brought up thinking that its completely acceptable.

    However, I do not agree with locking these people up in three star prisions, paying for their food and drink every day or the maintainance of their accomodation. I'd say throw them on a remote island somewhere and let them try to survive (but thats already been done ). Otherwise theres gotta be someway of making them earn their food so that the tax payers of this country do not have to fork out so much every year.

    I have a feeling that TM most likely shot the guy in the back because he didnt want him to get away. In fact its quite a logical thing to do except for the fatally of the method. A mistake in a fit of rage. Hence the short prison sentence methinks.

    How are people reacting to his release anyway? Not heard much of it of recent, not watched the news or anything.
    -Winning isn't everything, but losing is nothing

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    herbalist
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    if anyone broke into my house, i'd feel perfectly innocent taking a baseball bat to them and teachin em a lesson. they aint gonna be able to burgle anyone gain with shattered kneecaps are they? whatever happened to 'an englishmans home is his castle' etc.. we should be able to use whatever force necessary to remove these thieving pieces of sh*te from our houses or property, as they shouldn't be there and have no right to be there. the law doesn't seem to recognise this. tony martin is a hero for many people now, including me, for refusing to recognise what he did as being wrong.

    if war is the answer, then we are asking the wrong question
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    Originally posted by [R4A]Bigman
    And tbqh, if i were in the first scenario I'm pretty sure id beat seven shades of **** out of the person who did that. And probably try for a couple more shades after that. And I'm saying that now, when im completely calm and without just reason to. In a fit of rage people do some very rash things without thinking.

    I do think though, that there is a whole world of difference between rape and assualt etc, and theft.
    Certainly agreed. I concede that there is a possibility I too may be incensed enough to beat the living daylights out of someone. However I haven't been in that situation nor do I ever wish to be so I have little idea whether I'd be able to keep my composure. Provocation would definitely be taken into account in deciding any judicial action taken against you should you beat up someone doing such a thing, and the severe difference between non-aggrievated theft and rape would definitely be a factor.

    However people can get severely annoyed and/or upset should other perfectly legal situations occur. I'm sure finding out your wife or girlfriend was cheating on you would make you far angrier than someone burgling your house. Other scenarios are possible, I'll leave them to your imagination. The fact you are angry about something, be it legal or illegal, does not give you the absolute right to act on your anger.

    I have a feeling that TM most likely shot the guy in the back because he didnt want him to get away. In fact its quite a logical thing to do except for the fatally of the method. A mistake in a fit of rage. Hence the short prison sentence methinks.
    That's a fair assumption. However his actions following the shooting do not bear out claims of rational behaviour outside a momentary peak of rage. Leaving Barras there to die whilst spending the night in a hotel does not fit in with momentarily 'losing it' or attempting solely to incapacitate Barras. There's a lot more to the case than the tabloids who wish everything to be black and white and hero and villain are giving out. Had Martin shown any remorse that Barras died or for his actions subsequent to the shooting I'm sure he would have gained parole much earlier on. However this isn't the case and as such I now have very little sympathy for him.

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    Originally posted by not_your_punk
    if anyone broke into my house, i'd feel perfectly innocent taking a baseball bat to them and teachin em a lesson. they aint gonna be able to burgle anyone gain with shattered kneecaps are they?
    I'd also feel perfectly happy if you were locked up for a long time for taking this sort of 'revenge' out on no more than common burglars. Neither in this country nor in any country we describe as civilised or having Western values is the decision on punishment yours to either make or dole out. Do you also consider doling out your own form of 'justice' to those who anger you in perfectly legitimate ways such as cutting you up on the road?

  9. #41
    herbalist
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    of course i wouldn't do this to someone who cuts me up. at the end of the day, the burgling rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish should notbe in my house at all, he has no right to be there, and i have very right to stop them from being there and taking my property, which i worked for to buy. i'm not going to let them take my things, then go to someone else's house and do the same. also, why should TM show remorse for what he did? the way i see it, his actions are perfectly justified, he had been burgled and robbed and whatever so many times before, he had to put an end to it. if the 'justice system' worked, which it doesn't, then people wouldn't have to take the law into their own hands to protect themselves and their property.

    if war is the answer, then we are asking the wrong question
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    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Zathras
    I'd also feel perfectly happy if you were locked up for a long time for taking this sort of 'revenge' out on no more than common burglars. Neither in this country nor in any country we describe as civilised or having Western values is the decision on punishment yours to either make or dole out. Do you also consider doling out your own form of 'justice' to those who anger you in perfectly legitimate ways such as cutting you up on the road?
    its not revenge, revenge would be hunting him down in his house and doing it. something i'd be all to happy to do myself.

    Why is punishment only given out by a man in a dress and people who may never know what its like to be in such a situation and the fear and anger involved.

    people who cut you up on the road? anyone who takes a baseball bat to them has anger managment problems and needs help.

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    I dont think anybody really knows what happened, especially not Martin. He had mental problems and was woken in the middle of the night and confronted them in the dark. As to civilised countrys, i think that America is counted as that, or most of the rest of Europe. Also Police officers have shot unarmed people in circumstances similar to Martins ie the dark and having made a similar assumption ie the person being armed, and plod havent gone to prison. Think its just a bad decision made in the middle of the night. Yep he had a gun but most farmers take this as being an everyday thing, I have arranged for firearms to be placed on a ticket when they have been sitting in a shed for years. This would seem like a big thing to some but to many of us who work or use firearms it isnt. A car thief was killed near me a few years ago he was stealing a car, in court it was an accident, in reality the car owner was threatend so he used what he had taken as a deterant. He even took the "victim" to a Police station.
    Think this kind of thing is a total waste all round but most people would do the same thing. Just hope I am never forced to make a similar decision.
    Flibb
    Last edited by Flibb; 29-07-2003 at 01:08 AM.

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    It is revenge, revenge because you have been targeted and wish to teach this person a lesson. I don't wish to go into a semantics argument here, but revenge is a perfectly adequate word for that sort of behaviour. 'Teaching someone a lesson' for the action they are taking against you isn't taking revenge?

    I've also shown the areas in which Tony Martin could be expected to show reasonable remorse, first for actually killing someone rather than incapacitating them and second for leaving them there to bleed to death instead of reporting the incident. There's no justification for that, other than the justification of a sick minded person. If you support these actions then you're supporting capital punishment for non-aggrievated theft, pure and simple. The justice system works more than adequately. It's not perfect but then again nothing is. As a citizen of the UK you agree to abide by it. This includes the right to make reasonable attempt to apprehend someone committing a crime, plus reasonable force in self defence. If this isn't enough for you and you feel the need to cave someone's head in, you desperately need anger therapy. God forbid anyone making you angry, through illegal act or legal. Don't like it? There's always the option of emigrating.

    Knox: when is it 'allowed' to be angry? Why does the feeling of anger give legitimacy to acts of violence against someone, after all that's what we're discussing here, the 'paying someone a lesson' because of anger at what they have done. The 'man in a dress' you so quickly denigrate would happen to be an expert in legal matters and would have ample training of situations, plus expert counsel who will have spent many years on the issues of situations of burglaries and fear and anger, something you don't have, period.

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    Then why was the original ruling overturned buy another expert?
    Flibb

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    And you'd do better?

    Over-rulings are usually done with the presentation of new evidence or 'pressure' for a populist decision. Those cases that go to appeal often balance on very fine arguments and it is extremely rare that incompetence on the part of a judge is at fault for cases overturned at appeal.

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    The incompetance was on the part of the defence team. But hey judges have been known to make mistakes as well. And as to would I do better errr probably not and I havent made any sarky comments to you have I? Obviously if I could do better I would be judge Jon or lord Jon or God Jon but I aint Im just a bloke trying to say what I think without beng a total arse and without taking the piss out of other people.
    Flibb
    Last edited by Flibb; 29-07-2003 at 01:26 AM.

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    Originally posted by Zathras
    It is revenge, revenge because you have been targeted and wish to teach this person a lesson. I don't wish to go into a semantics argument here, but revenge is a perfectly adequate word for that sort of behaviour. 'Teaching someone a lesson' for the action they are taking against you isn't taking revenge?

    I've also shown the areas in which Tony Martin could be expected to show reasonable remorse, first for actually killing someone rather than incapacitating them and second for leaving them there to bleed to death instead of reporting the incident. There's no justification for that, other than the justification of a sick minded person. If you support these actions then you're supporting capital punishment for non-aggrievated theft, pure and simple. The justice system works more than adequately. It's not perfect but then again nothing is. As a citizen of the UK you agree to abide by it. This includes the right to make reasonable attempt to apprehend someone committing a crime, plus reasonable force in self defence. If this isn't enough for you and you feel the need to cave someone's head in, you desperately need anger therapy. God forbid anyone making you angry, through illegal act or legal. Don't like it? There's always the option of emigrating.

    Knox: when is it 'allowed' to be angry? Why does the feeling of anger give legitimacy to acts of violence against someone, after all that's what we're discussing here, the 'paying someone a lesson' because of anger at what they have done. The 'man in a dress' you so quickly denigrate would happen to be an expert in legal matters and would have ample training of situations, plus expert counsel who will have spent many years on the issues of situations of burglaries and fear and anger, something you don't have, period.
    I'm not even gonna discuss the tony martin side of things now, shooting the guy in the back was wrong. i'm now gonna take this personally as i found your post pretty patronising

    Its revenge they could easily of avoided had they not broken into my f*cking house!!

    you seem to miss the point completely here zathras, they SHOULDN'T EVEN BE THERE!

    A feeling of anger does not give legitimacy, it gives a reason, when angry a person will do things they'd never do normally.

    The man in a dress may be trained in law, but does he have actual real world experience of how it feels?

    so because by your logic i don't have official training i can't understand my own anger??

    a completely disjointed post for you there, not long, not fancy but to the point i feel.

    just out of interest zathras if you woke up at 3am to find someone in your house about to steal your things or about to kill or killing your loved ones what would you do?

    would the man in a dress and his training be helping you then?

    or would the baseball bat come into play?

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