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Thread: Martin determined to return home....

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    Registered+ Zathras's Avatar
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    Where was my "sarky" comment? The "And you'd do better?" was a serious question. Far too many people are derisive of judges based solely on the fact their attire makes them appear outmoded and aloof, whereas they are far from this. Put yourself in the position faced by a judge, getting cases ranging from extremely intricate fraud to simple drunken aggression. Of course there will be the occasional case where a judge may not know what an MP3 is or other things we as computer-literate people may think is an abhorrent hole of knowledge, but you can guarantee he'd have expert counsel to inform him of what it was.

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    herbalist
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    zathras, you talk bulls**t.
    Last edited by Punky; 29-07-2003 at 12:02 PM.

    if war is the answer, then we are asking the wrong question
    2 things i hate the most - xenophobia and the french
    "chuffing"

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    Originally posted by Knoxville
    you seem to miss the point completely here zathras, they SHOULDN'T EVEN BE THERE!
    No they shouldn't be there by law or by any moral judgement, but the fact that they are there doesn't suddenly give you carte-blanche to act with whatever base emotion you feel necessary. Someone stealing your milk from your front door doesn't give you the right to torture them does it? Them breaking a law doesn't suddenly make it okay for you to break the law back. There is a proscribed course of action to take to punish them for not being there in the first place.

    A feeling of anger does not give legitimacy, it gives a reason, when angry a person will do things they'd never do normally.
    So you'd admit that rational behaviour is not always forthcoming when you're angry. I'm sure everyone's done something when angry that they later regret. Being angry isn't sufficient excuse for breaking the law, although levels of provocation will be taken into account in determining punishment for your actions under the red mist.

    The man in a dress may be trained in law, but does he have actual real world experience of how it feels? so because by your logic i don't have official training i can't understand my own anger??
    As I stated "the man in the dress" will have experts in the areas of "how it feels" to provide him with analysis of how this will have affected happenings. I'm also sure a trained psychologist will be able to accurately predict and explain anger and how it effects people. Do you always understand your behaviour when you're angry, or do you simply attribute what you do to the simple fact that "you're angry"? Do you know the behavioural differences the presence of adrenaline through anger will cause, and can you attribute for certain whether you would have taken the same action faced with the same situation but without the physical reaction caused by the emotion?

    just out of interest zathras if you woke up at 3am to find someone in your house about to steal your things or about to kill or killing your loved ones what would you do?

    would the man in a dress and his training be helping you then?

    or would the baseball bat come into play?
    I've already stated exactly what I would do, but to save you actually having to read my posts I'll quote it here for you.

    In the first scenario I take reasonable action to apprehend them. This does not extend to beating the living daylights once I have apprehended them, nor does it extend to shooting them in the back as they are leaving. This is exactly what the law allows me to do. If in the process of apprehending them I am required to use lethal force to defend myself, I am perfectly entitled to do so.

    The "man in the dress and his training" would pass the sentence that the independent and impartial legal system in this country felt necessary for the crime committed or attempted against me. It is not for me to decide what sentence this person gets. It doesn't mean I have to be happy about any decision made, but I have to live with whatever it is.

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    All I can say is change many outdated laws and put the criminals to work for their crimes.

    No workie no eatie

    simple

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    Registered+ Zathras's Avatar
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    Originally posted by not_your_punk
    zathras, you talk ********.
    I think that constitutes a direct attack on me as forbidden by the rules of this forum, and I think I can demand an apology from you. If you can't argue your case without having to resort to such direct insults then you really shouldn't post here.

  6. #54
    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Zathras
    No they shouldn't be there by law or by any moral judgement, but the fact that they are there doesn't suddenly give you carte-blanche to act with whatever base emotion you feel necessary. Someone stealing your milk from your front door doesn't give you the right to torture them does it? Them breaking a law doesn't suddenly make it okay for you to break the law back. There is a proscribed course of action to take to punish them for not being there in the first place.
    No it doesn't give the right to torture milk thieves, but they're not in my house, they're not a threat to me, my family and my possesions.


    So you'd admit that rational behaviour is not always forthcoming when you're angry. I'm sure everyone's done something when angry that they later regret. Being angry isn't sufficient excuse for breaking the law, although levels of provocation will be taken into account in determining punishment for your actions under the red mist.
    Being angry does give me a right to exert what ever force on them at the time imho. If i'm angry and i loose control and he looses the ability to chew solid food it serves him right for being in my house.

    As I stated "the man in the dress" will have experts in the areas of "how it feels" to provide him with analysis of how this will have affected happenings. I'm also sure a trained psychologist will be able to accurately predict and explain anger and how it effects people. Do you always understand your behaviour when you're angry, or do you simply attribute what you do to the simple fact that "you're angry"? Do you know the behavioural differences the presence of adrenaline through anger will cause, and can you attribute for certain whether you would have taken the same action faced with the same situation but without the physical reaction caused by the emotion?
    I do understand my behaviour when angry, i also understand just how much adrenaline will affect me physically and mentally and how much my decision making capabilities would differ if adrenaline wasn't present in my system.

    I've already stated exactly what I would do, but to save you actually having to read my posts I'll quote it here for you
    Did you think i hadn't read that? i know exactly what you said, but i want to know what you'd do? do you know how your decisions might be affected?


    The "man in the dress and his training" would pass the sentence that the independent and impartial legal system in this country felt necessary for the crime committed or attempted against me. It is not for me to decide what sentence this person gets. It doesn't mean I have to be happy about any decision made, but I have to live with whatever it is.
    You would indeed, and would you rather live unhappy with they're punishment, or happy with your own?

    When it all comes down to it Zathras from what i read here you love the system and think it will protect you, when the real world breaks in through our back door's we'll see how well our methods work shall we, while your busy phoning the police i'll be standing over an unconcious burglar baseball bat in hand and loved ones safe.

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    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Zathras
    I think that constitutes a direct attack on me as forbidden by the rules of this forum, and I think I can demand an apology from you. If you can't argue your case without having to resort to such direct insults then you really shouldn't post here.
    Its not a direct attack on you, a direct attak on you would be to say "Zathras you ARE *******". Thats an attack on your opinions, he shouldn't be using that kind of language on a family forum though.

    I think he has tried to argue his case and been met with the same argument back from you every time, he can't help the way he feels on the matter.

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    Knoxville
    I'm glad I'm no the only one smellin the coffee, some people do live sheltered lives.

    Tan

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    Studmuffin Flibb's Avatar
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    I actually respect the police and judges and think they do a hard job BUT you cant in one sentance say that they have the best information etc and were right in this case and then the conviction gets changed form 10 years to 3 and from murder to manslaughter.... Then the response is thats its down to new evidence or public pressure. The public pressure bit makes a joke of the judicery (how the hell is that spelt?), the new evidence was that Martin had mental problems and was acting under deminished responsibility, surely the judge knew this from the original evidence. And the could you do better bit is the oldest piss take in the book, christ Adam probably used it on God. Could I have done better, err no I aint a judge, but Lord Chief Justice Woolf did do better he changed the conviction to manslaughter.
    Look at the BBC time line on the tony Martin case nobody had a clue what was going on, if he was so dangerous why did a judge let him out on conditional bail? All the judges involved the case all came to different answers. As to expert witneses dont make me laugh both side employ them saying totally different things.
    Flibb
    Last edited by Flibb; 29-07-2003 at 02:16 AM.

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    What I would physically do depends very much on the situation I faced. I've outlined the general strategy I'd face, but unless you're more specific I can't say that I'd go for the baseball bat first or phone the police or get out of the house or whatever. The system we're talking about is the judicial system, what happens after the initial confrontation, and I do respect the legal system we have here and our methods of trying cases is one of the most fair, just, independent and impartial in the world. The law allows you reasonable self defence, be it a fist, a baseball bat or a shotgun it all depends on the situation you face. If I had to kill to protect myself from a very real danger of severe injury then I would do so and the law would allow me to do so. What I wouldn't do is take matters into my own hands after the event is over - that's up to the police. Noone's trying to deny you what you already have, the legal right to reasonable action to defend yourself.

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    Originally posted by Knoxville
    Its not a direct attack on you, a direct attak on you would be to say "Zathras you ARE *******". Thats an attack on your opinions, he shouldn't be using that kind of language on a family forum though.
    Please point out the horse dung that I am talking and why it is horse dung. There's ways and means of debating an issue, losing your rag and resorting to dismissing my opinions as horse dung isn't one of them. If I replied to you solely saying you were simply talking **** how's that not both an offensive attack and a sign that someone is getting far too angry to continue rational debate?
    Last edited by Zathras; 29-07-2003 at 02:23 AM.

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    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Zathras
    Please point out the horse dung that I am talking and why it is horse dung. There's ways and means of debating an issue, losing your rag and resorting to dismissing my opinions as horse dung isn't one of them.
    I didn't say i agreed with his opnion that they were horse dung did i?

    no, i merely pointed out why he'd said that and that it wasn't an attack on you.

    I'm all for debate and am quite enjoying this one (btw next time you accuse me of spamming anywhere just remember this thread, its not just you who can do the long replys)

    everybody loves an argument and i think he just got a bit too agitated.

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    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Zathras
    What I would physically do depends very much on the situation I faced. I've outlined the general strategy I'd face, but unless you're more specific I can't say that I'd go for the baseball bat first or phone the police or get out of the house or whatever. The system we're talking about is the judicial system, what happens after the initial confrontation, and I do respect the legal system we have here and our methods of trying cases is one of the most fair, just, independent and impartial in the world. The law allows you reasonable self defence, be it a fist, a baseball bat or a shotgun it all depends on the situation you face. If I had to kill to protect myself from a very real danger of severe injury then I would do so and the law would allow me to do so. What I wouldn't do is take matters into my own hands after the event is over - that's up to the police. Noone's trying to deny you what you already have, the legal right to reasonable action to defend yourself.
    I don't respect the legal system here and i know people that work for it that don't. If you choose to its up to you.

    You want a scenario? ok you wake up in bed next to your wife/gf/whatever and see a huge guy standing over her with a knife, what would you do?

    remain completely calm and "disable him" using reasonable force, or loose control and damn near kill him like i would?

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    Originally posted by Flibb
    I actually respect the police and judges and think they do a hard job BUT you cant in one sentance say that they have the best information etc and were right in this case and then the conviction gets changed form 10 years to 3 and from murder to manslaughter.... Then the response is thats its down to new evidence or public pressure.
    They didn't necessarily have the best information - they don't collect the actual information. What they do have is expert counsel and analysis available to them on the information that exists. I'm not talking about what analysis is presented by both the defence and prosecution but the actual independent staff of the judge himself and all the backup that he has.

    And the could you do better bit is the oldest piss take in the book, christ Adam probably used it on God. Could I have done better, err no I aint a judge, but Lord Chief Justice Woolf did do better he changed the conviction to manslaughter.
    Did he do 'better' or did he do different? The 'can you do better' bit - well some people really do believe they can do better, and somehow that their knowledge of events and the situation that has happened is superior to that of the judge and jury who actually sit through the entire legal proceedings. That's where the whole attack on the judiciary started in this thread - people don't agree with their verdicts on certain things therefore the judge must be wrong and they must be right.

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    RIGHT F*** the lot if you I need sleep, just back from the pub and get involved in this. I need a kebab and Knox is tempting me with pictures of his freezer. Facts stand original judge was wrong Wolff was right and if Martin had been convicted of deminished responsibility originaly he probably would have been out of a loony bin a few years ago. Im going to bed to sharpen my knifes, will put the shotgun under the bed and the cleaning kit up my arse, at least have the defence I was cleaning it when it went off. Sleep tight and keep the phone handy incase you hear something go BUMP in the night...

    Flibb

    PS Did martin have a phone or had he eaten it?

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    Originally posted by Knoxville
    I don't respect the legal system here and i know people that work for it that don't. If you choose to its up to you.
    There's a difference between not respecting the legal system's decision on certain things yet living with it because it's the law of the land and actually seeking to implement your own form of justice. As I said, there are going to be decisions people don't like because of their own personal opinions on certain areas or personal involvement in the case. If someone precious to me were hurt I'd naturally want the largest sentence possible, but I'd also recognise that I was too biased to be able to make a fair judgement. I would obviously be disappointed if this didn't happen, but I wouldn't take action of my own if the sentencing didn't go my way, nor would I let the possibility of not getting the sentence I desired affect what action I would take in during the incident in the first place. The last thing on my mind had I knocked down someone attacking me or my family is worrying that they would get off with a light sentence therefore it's up to me to kick seven bells out of them.

    You want a scenario? ok you wake up in bed next to your wife/gf/whatever and see a huge guy standing over her with a knife, what would you do? remain completely calm and "disable him" using reasonable force, or loose control and damn near kill him like i would?
    What weapons do I have available? Where is he in relation to me and my girlfriend? Can he see me from where he's standing? There are far too many variables. However I do know if and when I have disabled him I would hope not to take my revenge upon him, rather get my family to safety and call the police.

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