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About LinkBacksIt's really hard to tell if it's a cover up or not. Gross incompetence is more common and can pull the same ****.
It's really hard to tell if it's a cover up or not. Gross incompetence is more common and can pull the same ****.
Yes, but people are now saying they are covering up that gross incompetence. Maybe not, but the CCTV thing is very fishy. And why are they not investigating the incident properly? You have to admit its very odd either way.Originally Posted by oralpain
I'm not in the least bit surprised some of the CCTV wasn't working. Does ANYONE believe all these cameras are conscientiously set up daily, and maintained when necessary? I'll bet they even still use videotape that needs frequent changing.
It's easy to install CCTV. But keeping it running takes time, effort and money. The temptation to skimp on the job is far greater than the risk of getting caught out.
And they didn't all fail in this instance. CCTV is what showed him walking into the station and picking up the newspaper.
Last edited by rajagra; 17-08-2005 at 10:48 AM.
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It takes alot more fear/motivation than that generated by a major attack to cut through mass procrastination.
Smells to me like a cover up, the police must have been in possetion of these facts before the IPCC enquiry was set up (police deliberately delayed it until a week later) and they allowed statements like "he was wearning a supsiciously thick jacket" float around when they clearly knew it was incorrect as after all they had his body.
I also heard on the news that the police did not challenge him verbally at all rather they charged into the train and restrained him before shoting him 7 times in the head once in the shoulder and also missing 3 times and hitting the seat.
The guy also didnt stumble onto the train he was sitting down, the police must have known this yet they "allowed" the story about him running and stumbling to run.
It stinks of a cover up and it looks as though the home office is complicit, what a shock that is...
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i agree the cctv thing is probably a cover up. all the cctv cameras worked for catching the later failed bombers, and if anyone remebers the nail bomber a few years ago who was very quickly caught youll remember that the tube cctv is always fine. as usual the police will get away with this incomppetence.
This all rather depends on whether we are a police state or not. I'm afraid I have very strong views on the direction our country is headed. I always thought that the police were there to *serve* us, the public. Hence, any amendments to their powers or policies would ultimately be sanctioned by the British public who, after all, pay their wages through our taxes.
A police state, by definition, is one in which the government and police dictate to and control the public by adopting powers and laws that they see fit without any referendum or any consultation with the public.
I truly believe that the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes was covered up and Sir Ian Blair should resign. The policeman that pumped seven bullets into the head of Jean should be tried for manslaughter.
this is prob not gonna happen though. maybe an investigation but thats it max.
I agree with pyle that top police officers head should roll.
do you think we are a police state then taz? i suppose that we dont get any say in legal policies personally ie through referendums but we do appoint the polititians to choose these policies ourself, and we all have local mps if we disagree with things who can bring about change if something really unjust was to occur.
I think we're heading down that route. Yes, we elect politicians to lay down the law on our behalf. However, the vast, vast majority of the British public have no respect nor trust for politicians.
Our politicians are in fact directed by big business and the right-wing media in both the US and our country. Take a look at the Republican party in the US: all the senior figures have current or past involvement in oil companies, defence companies and civil engineering companies (ie. Haliburton). Guess what the biggest growth area in the US has been over the last decade? Yep, oil, military and reconstruction work.
Our own government is supposed to be Centre-Left. Guess which newspaper they pandered to in the run-up to the last general election? The right-wing Sun! Who would have thought it? Why did they do that? Simply to get re-elected.
If you research the writings of Leo Strauss (Google). You will find that the best way to control the population is to instill fear in them. Develop policies that cause problems in the first place. Then appear to protect the population by introducing seemingly harsh measures that appear popular to the religious and far-right parties and media. That way you can pass any legislation you want.
The teachings of Leo Strauss actually form the basis of the Project for the New American Century in which America will do whatever it takes globally to protect its interests at any cost. The politics of fear is here now. And it's working.
The problem is that the majority are easily panicked into accepting the curtailing of civil liberties by waving the terrorist threat at them. I don't think we're a police state yet, but surely in the wake of the revelations concerning the at least tacit dishonesty from the police, and I'd argue active dishonesty as well, and the fact that most of what we were told justified de Menezes being shot (coat, running when challenged, vaulting barriers etc) was a barefaced lie, all those who keep bleating that "an innocent man has nothing to fear from the police" or "if you've got nothing to hide why are you worried?" should possibly demonstrate a bit more concern.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, 1759
"Ouch!" - Abraham Lincoln, Ford's Theatre, 1865.
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It was on the BBC radio news that the CCTV camera's were working - some of the tapes have gone "missing". Odd that, eh :/
That on top of the blatent lies told by the police meens head should deffinatly be rolling, just a mater of how many and who's now.Scotland Yard "initially resisted" the investigation into the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, the Independent Police Complaints Commission has said.
The inquiry was not formally handed over to the IPCC until five days after the Brazilian was shot dead by police on a Tube, BBC News now understands.
Lawyers for Mr de Menezes' family said this "fatal delay" meant vital evidence could have been lost.
- BBC.co.uk
how convenient. if they hadnt then they would have been leaked and we'd have all seen a negative part of the police force, however as it is we are reaffirmed into our culture of fear.
i took my young sibs to an adventure farm place thing yesterday and there were too kids about 6 years old opposite us on one of the rides. they were talking about the shaky tractor ride and comparing it to the tube and one said "you dont want to go on that it gets bombed, doesnt it." if kids this old are scared and know about these things then it shows how succesfully we are becoming drawn into fear of of terrorists etc thrpugh media hype and we'll allow the police to do anything to stop suspects.
No wonder A level results are at an all time high if they're teaching history etc. using memorable pop culture references like that!
Back on topic, I find it amazing that people are making the same mistake as when this shooting first happened, i.e. believing the first thing they hear that fits in with their personal preferences (probably myself included if I go back & check.)
One soundbite from an (allegedly) leaked document, clearly taken out of context, and suddenly everyone's an expert!
The only thing that seems to be clearer is that the victim wasn't behaving suspiciously, and did nothing to deserve what happened to him.
Oh, and that most of the witnesses got it completely wrong e.g. the guy who appeared on the news saying the victim ran onto the train and tripped. The witness clearly wasn't lying. He believed what he was saying was true. Yet it was completely inaccurate.
As I said in another thread, it has been proven that witnesses recollections are NEVER reliable.
Maybe we should wait for the results of the enquiry before we decide what happened?
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Well surely that's the only thing that counts? The police had no good reason to shoot de Menezes, but they did. An inquiry would be nice, but given the way that quite a lot of the crucial evidence appears to have fallen down the back of the police's sofa, exactly how comprehensive or accurate do you think it's likely to be? Even assuming that it's a fair and unbiased inquiry?
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