The Route Of All Evil

[yamangman]

fuddam,

i commend you on your long reply but in all honesty most of that stuff is just wasted on me, I would much prefer to get the the root of this conversation, I think that basicly is, how can you be sure that all the love and the cuddling and the sharing and the caring and the listening to god the practical joker is not just subjectively percived by you because of christian indoctrination.

Also I went to uni as well, and existentialism is nothing to do with psychology at all, its philosophical.

I would encourage you to read some of Satre on wikipedia but I suspect that you have conditioned yourself to look at things in an entirely unobjective fashion in line with religious teaching, thats why none of the flaws and logical incosistencies are apparent to you and why you will not accept it as even a possible alternative because you just "know".

you could say the same thing about me as I am never ever going to accept that there is a god until he pops round for coffee and dazzless me with his omnipotence to be quite frank, the evidence would have to be overwhelming and it just isnt.

However there is a difference, I can accept that as we learn more about the universe I will have to modify what I understand as correct, that is part of the scientific method and I stand by it as the most robust way to turn a subjective view of the universe from us to an objective measurable universe backed up with evidence.

I also dont understand how you can say you dont worry about it?

worry is the wrong word, as I cant say I worry, I am happy in the knowlege that I will die and rot into dust, does not worry me one bit, although I do think about the nature of me, life the universe and everythine else and trust me I have considered religion and it does not stand up to rational scrutiny.

Where on earth do you get this from G4Z? I have to admit you sound 600 and a half percent more intelligent here then when i've ever heard you before hehe.


Fuddam, have you heard the same God that told Pope Innocent III that he was the caretaker of the planet? The same God that told him outside the Church there is no salvation? The same person who massacred thousands of innocent people because of his divine insight? Should I be worried?

Why did you choose Christianity in particular? (I know I know, you heard the Christian God, he spoke to you). But still, you say wern't indoctrinated since childhood. So why Christianity?

[G4Z]

hehe nuts you cheeky gimp, I can be insightful when the mood takes me.

[fuddam]

fuddam,
i commend you on your long reply but in all honesty most of that stuff is just wasted on me, I would much prefer to get the the root of this conversation, I think that basicly is, how can you be sure that all the love and the cuddling and the sharing and the caring and the listening to god the practical joker is not just subjectively percived by you because of christian indoctrination.

I don't have a pat answer for that, because we do not share a common experience that we can both relate to - the fence thing again.



However, in an ad hoc way, I'll say the following:

most people, when in a face to face situation, I would think stand up as reasonably intelligent. Most people seem to have some critical faculties. Right? My point is that when one generalises about a group of people (and I am NOT saying you are doing anything of the kind), they tend to come across as far more gullible / less intelligent / plain dumb.

So, of the hundreds of millions people who believe in Christianity (last time I checked, which was way back, there were a billion plus Catholics, let alone the rest, but my figures are shakey - please correct), you'd think most would have some critical ideas on something they believe, esp something for which there appears to be no evidence or proof(from your perspective). Yes, this is very loose debate, but my point is that I'm not alone in my experience of that communication with God, of it being 2 way, of it being very real and not simply hallucination.

I would go so far as to say it warrants at least some examination, even if only as the single largest group hallucination ever ever ever

Also I went to uni as well, and existentialism is nothing to do with psychology at all, its philosophical.

agreed. my reference to psychology was concerning the mind, dellusions, hallucinations, the biology of the mind etc. I did 2 years of philosophy, which wasn't a huge amount, but enough to fill in the existential stuff too

you could say the same thing about me as I am never ever going to accept that there is a god until he pops round for coffee and dazzless me with his omnipotence to be quite frank, the evidence would have to be overwhelming and it just isnt.

Well, 2 things:

1) I'll pray for that experience for you

2) you can try the following experiment. I have no idea what the outcome will be.

Find a quiet space, alone, and ask God, if He's truly real, to reveal Himself to you, in whatever form or shape He thinks appropriate. It might feel kinda stupid, because one could equate that with asking the easter bunny or santa to make a grand entrance, but believe me, if you sincerely want Him to make His presence known, your request will not go unanswered.

At worst, you've explored the possibility, and lost nothing.

[fuddam]

Fuddam, have you heard the same God that told Pope Innocent III that he was the caretaker of the planet? The same God that told him outside the Church there is no salvation? The same person who massacred thousands of innocent people because of his divine insight? Should I be worried?

IIRC, there were loads of popes who were responsible for a lot of hellishness during their time. This one claimed divine insight led him to murder, but was it really? Was his behaviour consistent with fundamental theology from the bible, including to love one's neighbour as oneself, to not murder, to not judge, to show mercy and compassion, to be as Christ was?

methinks not.

His behaviour might lead one to think that he had lost the plot. The power corrupted.

I don't know much about him anyway, but thus the essential requirement of testing any so-called divine message against scripture, in rational debate with other Christians, and not blind adherence.

Why did you choose Christianity in particular? (I know I know, you heard the Christian God, he spoke to you). But still, you say wern't indoctrinated since childhood. So why Christianity?

hmmm, dunno if I said I wasn't indoctrinated, but can at least say this: I grew in a Christian family where I was encouraged to think for myself, to question, to argue, to debate. One of my strongest childhood memories is the parental instruction that just because everyone else wants to jump in the fire, does it mean I should too?

So, I came from that Christian background, grew up believing in Christ. At the age of 11, however, I made the choice myself. I accepted Christ for myself. Prior to the choice, I had been a believer, but as a child. At 11, I made an informed, relatively adult decision. No more easter bunnies or santa.

You might scoff at that decision for the age it was made, but that's out of my hands.

My over-riding concern has been for truth. It was not a choice for a religion - as I said before, I am not in favour of choosing a religion, since that sounds somewhat arbitrary and contextual - but for what I understand to be true.

Since that time I have read extensively about other religions and belief systems, esp Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism, Confucionism, Zen, Existentialism, Mormon, JWs, Eckankar (and various other New Age systems, which tend to reduce to Hinduism). The fact that I come from a Christian background is not a liability but a strength, since it gave me a foundation to work from, an empathy with other systems that espouse a Creator, and as we know, nobody comes from a blank slate.

Some might say I was already prejudiced against non-Christian belief - well, you'll never be able to ascertain how sincere I was in my reading / studying, so it will remain conjecture.

Furthermore, I lived in Asia for a few years, living cheek by jowl with the more Chinese / Japanese of those aforementioned religions, and I speak mandarin chinese. I didn't do so because I found Christianity lacking, but because I wanted to see for myself, and to understand different points of view. One country had about 600 religions, with Christianity forming a measley few percent.

I didn't choose Christianity from a purely intellectual background, but then I don't personally know anyone who has. What I have done is embrace discussion on the topic in any shape or form. Mine is not a mindless belief. Those 25+ years have involved continual searching, discussion, studying. As it should. And my knowledge and belief in Christ has not been found wanting.

ho hum

EDIT: just had a look at wikipedia about Innocent 111 here . interesting reading.

[G4Z]

I don't have a pat answer for that, because we do not share a common experience that we can both relate to - the fence thing again.

Ok, well you compare it to love, I can compare to that and I have to say I am no t mind reader and my experience is not the same as this.

The simplest way I can explain it though, is probably from love.

If someone loves you, how do you know? What is evidence, the facts? Can you prove it to an outsider? Ultimately, no. One can show examples of how that person's love is manifested towards you (eg through sacrifice, and Christians will talk of Christ's sacrifice on the cross) but not prove what you are feeling, either as a recipient of their love, or your love for them. But nonetheless, you KNOW when someone loves you, and when you love someone else. Undeniable.

somebody who has never been in love will only appreciate what it all means once they too fall in love. The other side of the fence.

Well, I dont want to go into detail but I have a long term girlfriend of 6 years now and in all honesty, how do you know?

do you feel it? the answer is no you dont, i know what I think and feel, a lot of the time she is a mystery, I only know what she says and what she does and that is how I know, there are allways things like body language and pheremones that give people clues and allow them to guess at what it is theya re feeling. i will not get into my view that love and attachment are simply mating strategys that have evolved over time.


either way, I am sure this experience is comperable to your own except in the way we view it and do not accept that you can just KNOW things, you can guess and you can look at evidence you cannot know things from birth, things are learned from others or experience. Do children know from birth than water is dangerous? or do they have to be taught?