Muslims, Islam and violence.

[Nick]

Right, lots of replies to answer so please excuse the multiple quoting...

Lebanon where the riots you mention are is hardly a stable country that has suddenly become unstable due to a few offended muslims.
15k out of 1.5 billion *is* a minority. One school girl *is* a minority but they are held up as representatives of all 1.5 billion which is sad.

Accepted, and yes, it is sad. But the fact still remains that you don't see the followers of other religions doing anything like this.

Please note, I am NOT attacking the Muslim faith nor am I trying to stir up anti-Muslim feelings... if this thread takes a turn in that direction in the slightest I will personally dump it. But I do feel that these issues should be discussed.

Note I dont agree with the girl or the protestors or rioters but am amazed at peoples inability to discern that people who share common beliefs or culture are not one single entity.

I understand this but where I'm having trouble is in the apparent extremism being displayed in one faith. Lower on I'll be quoting Taz, who appears, from his replies, to be the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm not suggesting that Taz is not a faithful follower of his faith, nor suggesting that he is lacking in the way he chooses to worship, far from it.

Sorry meant to say, in a sentence are you proposing that muslims are more violent than other faiths? More intolerant?

No, absolutely not. But I am questioning how a faith can swing so drastically from one extreme to another. To be frank, the reaction to the cartoons worries me deeply. Don't these extremist, violent demonstrators see the damage they are causing to their argument?

Maybe Muslims are more violent, look at where the majority of them come from, places where violence is a way of life, an everyday thing....

Nope, I don't agree with that. I don't think that Muslims as a whole are violent, but I do think that some of those who follow the Muslim faith are violent and hide behind their faith as a justification for their violent actions.

I am a British Muslim.

Thank you for posting Taz.
And note that people... A BRITISH Muslim. This has nothing to do with race, colour or creed.

a) I am not violent. I am against all forms of violence (including wars and all insurgent activity).

Same here.

b) My family, my Muslims friends and myself are totally outraged by the mindless so-called Muslim thugs that were waving offensive placards around outside the Danish Embassy. A peaceful protest would have been the right reaction to the cartoons.

I couldn't agree more. I can't say I was 'outraged' as I'm not a Muslim, I'm not even religious, but I was shocked, and to be honest, rather angry that any protestor should think that this is a reasonable way to demonstrate their feelings.

d) Having lived all my life in this country and contributed a huge amount to it by integrating fully, living within the law, paying huge taxes every month and never getting a penny from the state, I do feel a bit under siege at the moment!

Well that has to be the saddest thing I've read all day. I'm very aware of the whole being 'tarred with the same brush' thing... I wouldn't want anyone to feel under threat for their beliefs. I'm wondering if this is about intergation at all... surely complete integration would mean that we wouldn't even be discussing as it would have happened and we wouldn't be aware of it? Even so, I'm well aware of the fact that there are millions of peaceful Muslims all seeing guys running around burning Danish flags and wondering where they expect that to get them.

e) I'm proud of my country but hate the present government. As do a a lot of non-Muslims!

Not too sure what this has to do with it, but I'm not all that chuffed with Tory Blair... sorry, TONY Blair... or Fatty Prescott for that matter.

f) I honestly don't know what the solution to the current problem is. I've almost started to feel embarrassed and guilty just for having my faith

You shouldn't feel embarassed over your faith. I have the utmost respect for anyone that can follow a faith. I can't do it, its just not in me. I just can't believe in an omnipotent, all-powerful being... I just don't have faith like that. I understand that many people draw strength from their faith and find great solace in it. I sometimes wonder what it'd be like but then I hit the wall of belief... but that's just me.

a faith that is torn, stretched and warped by too many people.

Now THAT'S hitting the nail on the head! I hesitate to use the word, but could it be some sort of lack of control? I don't know the history of how the Muslim faith has grown and spread, but isn't there some kind of top man, like the Catholic's Pope to step in and sort it out?

g) I am genuinely saddened by some of the comments on here. However, I understand the reasoning behind the comments. It would be easy to say to people, "Don't tar all Muslims with the same brush" but that is becoming harder to say... Believe it or not there are still loads of Muslims that care about other people, that work hard and make a positive difference to the world.

I apologize if I've upset you. I'm not trying to be unreasonable, I'm trying to understand. I know there are many Muslims who just get on with life and, like everyone else on the planet just want a quiet life and to do what they please.

I suppose the real crux of this is that ANYTHING done in the name of a faith automatically drags the passive, peaceful followers of the same faith into equation too.

One other minor point - there have been anti-semitic cartoons and articles published in newspapers in Israel (for obvious reasons). There has been no comparable action by the Jewish community over such things.

True, but as discussed just uo above, perhaps the Jewish faith is either less open to misinterpretation or hasn't had as long to be twisted into something it isn't?

I am one who finds it totally acceptable for members of other cultures to co-exist with the more traditionalist Briton, however when one does not attempt to integrate oneself, then I have difficulty in accepting them.

And I'm afraid I'll disagree with you there. Integration, as I see it, is a bit of give and take on both sides. There's something to be gained for both sides nearly every time. If someone chooses to not integrate, that's fine with me, I'll still accept them. But if they then start to dictate the way they should be treated, even after I've made concessions and allowances for them, that's when I start to think I have a problem. We all have to make allowances if we're to get on with each other, that means everyone not just those who pick and choose what part of another culture they want to be part of. That's just taking advantage.

For the record, I think the cartoons, taken as a whole are too much. But they do open up the question of how do you debate an issue. That extremists should set a faith up as being above everything, including laws in place to protect the general populace is disturbing and raises the question of how to control the followers whilst still alowing them to worship...

You know, I'm starting to wonder if religion as whole is just a bad idea all round.

[iMc]

You know, I'm starting to wonder if religion as whole is just a bad idea all round.

Been following the thread closely and that sentance has been in my mind the entire time. Infact I've thought of that possibility for quite some time.

The difficulty is, as with most things, that the negatives are much more easily noticable than the positives. As such the negatives get all the attention. It makes me ask myself, do more people get better lives from religion or do more people get negative impact on their lives from religion.

At the moment it seems to be the latter but it is impossible to know.

From what I've learnt and experianced all religion seems to do, in terms of worldwide cohesion between people, is create different, possibly opposing, groups or sets of people. That in my opinion isn't a positive thing as it is only natural that opposing groups will end up in conflict when they meet. That fact seems to be part of nature, although it would be nice to think that, being human, we had the intelligence to overcome such instincts of opposition.

[Taz]

No Nick, there isn't a 'top man'. There are self-appointed 'rent-a-quote' so-called Muslim leaders that I have never heard of. I am not joking, I have never heard of a single Muslim leader that is wheeled out in front of the cameras on a daily basis.

The vast majority of British Muslims in this country practise their faith discreetly and are fully Westernised and all the better for it, without ever imposing their faith on anyone else. I really would like others to ask questions and I think it's good to air views in the current climate to gain a better understanding of who's who and what's what.

[Merlin4458]

Originally Posted by Nick
You know, I'm starting to wonder if religion as whole is just a bad idea all round.

At the moment anyway, ive come to the conclusion that religion causes more harm then good. Hopefully my views will change, but it just seems to me that most attacks and bombing and things on the new are religious based, and its just beginning to bore me now
same old

[Rave]

Are you suggesting I'm Muslim bashing?

If so you've missed the point of my original post!

No, not at all. You said:

I've just heard on the news about a Muslim girl fighting her school to allow her to wear the full Muslim clothing that completely covers her up.

....and I was surprised, because as far as I knew that story was done and dusted months ago. Unless there has been some new development in the case, it seems odd that it should be on the news now, hence my suspicion that some news editor is casting around for stories which may portray muslims in a bad light.

Anyway:

Accepted, and yes, it is sad. But the fact still remains that you don't see the followers of other religions doing anything like this.

What, you don't see people spreading hate in the name of religion? Or commiting massacres? Or starting race riots? Comitting sectarian violence?

[Nick]

Rave, no, she's now going to High Court with it, that's why its back in the news.

I never said other religions were any better, I asked if any other religions had doen anything like this, the 'this' being burning an embassy or demonstrating with such open ferocity towards those not of the same religion.

I'm very much of a mind that religion, whatever religion, is, on a mass scale, a bad thing.

Its a sad fact that religion has killed more people since civilisation began than all the wars, famines, plagues and natural disasters put together. (Other than the wars waged ona a relgious basis.... of which they are an amazingly high number compared to those waged over politics, territory or resources...)

[Nick]

No Nick, there isn't a 'top man'. There are self-appointed 'rent-a-quote' so-called Muslim leaders that I have never heard of. I am not joking, I have never heard of a single Muslim leader that is wheeled out in front of the cameras on a daily basis.

The vast majority of British Muslims in this country practise their faith discreetly and are fully Westernised and all the better for it, without ever imposing their faith on anyone else. I really would like others to ask questions and I think it's good to air views in the current climate to gain a better understanding of who's who and what's what.

Taz, thanks for that.

Personally, I don't care how anyone practises their religion... I don;t mean that in an off-hand, dismissive way, I mean I don't mind how anyone practises religion. If theyr prefer to worship at home in their living room or bungee jumping of the Golden Gate Bridge, that's fine by me.

Perhaps a solution to this apparent schism over how the Koran should be interpreted would be helped by Muslims having a... I don;t know what he'd be called but having a Muslim version of the Pope or something... someone to tell the extremist to chill out, someone to have the final say in what exactly a particular passage means... If the extremist are so concenred with the respect they think their religion deserves (not that I'm saying it doesn't deserve respect) then perhaps they'd respect a recognised leader and so some sort of moderation could be effected?

[iranu]

The problems we have in this country with radical Islam is the same that every other western country has

1. A failure to tackle extremism. Britain has long been a refuge for miltant Islamics. Britain has been accused many a time of harbouring people who wish to destabilise other regimes in the middle east.

2. Poor Asylum policy. People like Abu Hamza have been free to settle here (and take a good slice of British taxpayers money) yet have been allowed to preach hate and indoctrinate young Muslims. There is absolutely no reason why Britain or any other western country should give this man asylum or any like him.

3. Immigration policy. Integrating a large number of immigrants in a relatively short time with a culture vastly different to that of the host nation without safeguards is reckless and irresponisble. It leads to ghettoisation, lack of opportunity, alienation, siege mentality and is no good for the immigrant population or their hosts.

Unfortunately by calling for any of the above I will automatically be deemed a racist. A title that I resent. For too long polititians have foistered a "multi-cultural" society on us in Europe. That policy is now being shown not to work simply because they believed multiculturalism was the be all and end all. They never thought things through.


I would like to thank Taz for posting. I know 3 or 4 Muslims who have integrated and do this country and their religion proud. However not one of them is prepared to stand up a be counted for. Not one of them will march or confront the Islamo-facists who marched in London or those who harbour these militant views whether it be in Islamic countries or in their own communities. The reason why everyone is now very wary of any Muslim is because the ordinary integrated moderate Muslim is a coward. (shock horror I hear you cry - you can't say that!! - Yes I can if Hexus let's me.). The people I talk to fear that they will be targeted if they speak out against the militants. I keep telling them safety in numbers but they simply run like sheep to their elders for advice. No, no mustn't rock the boat, we'll deal with it say the community leaders. bah!

It should be the duty of every well balanced Muslim to get up off their backsides, form up, march, protest and expose and throw out these radicals who seek to destabilise, murder and terrorise. Use the true power of free speech! Only when that happens will people in the UK come to realise that the loud mouthed thugs that are seen on the news and grab the headlines are not representative of the majority who follow Islam. This problem cannot now be solved by government, it can only be solved by those who are true moderates and wish to participate fully in this country and other free European democracies.

2p

[Bunjiweb]

Some people in this thread have over-reacted or completely missed the point. I even suspect some of you did not read the entirity of the original post judging by some comments.

Nick i totally agree with you, Theres a great difference between being tolerant of religion, and having to put up with people preaching that if you do not believe in their religion you should be beheaded....

Oh, and the most sickening banner i saw at the demonstrations in London was...

"Europe, Remember 9/11"

I personally read that as inciting terrorism as it is blatently saying "do things our way or we will give you another pile of coffins to worry about"...

Ben

[[GSV]Trig]

Europe, Remeber 9/11...

Erm, why, what happened on the 9th of November?

[nichomach]

Rave, no, she's now going to High Court with it, that's why its back in the news.

She went to High Court last year, Nick, then the Court of Appeal in March who ruled in her favour. It's being considered by the House of Lords since the school are challenging the CoA verdict, but the Lords are unlikely to overturn the CoA ruling.

[Nick]

Ok, then it must be another case then as I heard on the radio that a girl was taking her case to High Court depsite the school already winning a ruling.

[kalniel]

Religion really has nothing to do with it.

For years people blamed religion for the NI conflicts, but sectarianism really wasn't religious - none of the attrocities were allowed within christianity. And since the peace process most of the fighting going on is between different groups who are have the same 'religious' viewpoint (ie two protestant para's fighting each other). Mostly the fighting is just between groups, over drug areas or whatever. Whatever defines the group isn't really important, the fact that they are a different group is all that causes the tension.

[Nick]

Actually, I'm starting to believe more and more that religion is being used as a shield for a hidden agenda, whatever that may be, and that, in my view, is more damaging than anything else... and that right now, the Muslim faith is finding itself being dragged into the spotlight where it niether deserves nor wnats that publicity.

Why am I thinking this?

Well, let's take the example of the Bedfordshire chap who dressed up as a suicide bomber and went off to protest about the cartoons.

So what he's saying to the world there is that he feels VERY strongly that the Muslim religion has been gravely offended.

Now let's ignore the poor taste of his outfit and just focus on the fact he felt moved to demonstrate at all... fair play, the guy feels his faith has taken an unjustified pummeling and he's very, very angry.

So then, a few days later, we find out that this chap is actually on parole from early prison release for drug dealing having served half his three year sentence.

Sorry, but the bloke is a bloody hypocrite, someone stirring up trouble and using religion as a reason...

Seems he was that offended by cartoons that he went to the trouble of dressing up and travelling to London but he didn't have any trouble in flogging crack cocaine...

Now, to be fair, he has aplogised for what he wore, but the bigger issue is the hypocrisy he's displaying.

You could argue that people change and what he did in the past shouldn't be held against him now, which would be fair enough if the guy was dealing say, 5 years ago... but this guy is on parole now... if he hadn't been released early he'd still be inside... this was a recent offence.

[nichomach]

In fact it was an offence committed about 3 years ago. He'd already served 2 and a half years for it, and he's now been returned to prison. His original sentence was for 5 and a half years. I'm sorry, but your assumption that in that time he couldn't have renounced the sort of behaviour that led him to be sent to jail seems a little unwarranted. To turn matters slightly around, how do you know that becoming a sincere Muslim wasn't what formed part of him not taking up selling drugs again immediately upon his release? Religious conviction has been known to do that.

edit: In fact he was jailed in 2002

And for anyone here who feels like whining about the old "one law for them and another for us" chestnut, I hope you'll have noted the conviction of Abu Hamza HERE.

[Mike Fishcake]

Religion is being used as a scapegoat.

In this case and many like it, it is being used as a shild to hide behind grotesque primal instincts.

Billions of people worldwide are loyal to their faith and practise it peacefully. Obviously these aren't reported on. It's only the ones that cause disruption that ever make the news.