UK Government wants backdoors in windows..

[Spud1]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4713018.stm

Windows Vista is due to be rolled out later this year. Cambridge academic Ross Anderson told MPs it would mean more computer files being encrypted.

He urged the government to look at establishing "back door" ways of getting around encryptions.

The Home Office later told the BBC News website it is in talks with Microsoft.

Is it just me that thinks this is yet another totally retarded idea by our hypocritical small minded government?

They are asking microsoft, and other companies providing encryption solutions to give them a backdoor master key so that they can bypass any encryption..

Fine I can see why, a legal case against a paedophile for example who has encypted his harddrive (possibly) containing evidence against him/her. The courts could simply unlock it and prosecute, but what about the other implications?

The biggest one that I can see is, what if that backdoor key was leaked? Which it would be, I would bet money on it. So called backdoor/master key's have been used in lot's of software before, the closest example I can think of off-hand is with computer bios's. Lots and Lots of bios's had (and may still have) backdoor/master passwords that would bypass any restrictions set by a user, such as a power on password. This would allow someone who knew the backdoor password to boot a computer that is normally well protected.

The same applies with encryption, if the master key was leaked any cracker could simply break into a computer system (say a corporate network), locate the encrypted data source and unlock it without having to spend howevermany thousand years brute forcing the encryption key. This could be disasterous surely?

Of course there is the possibilty of the backdoor actually not being leaked (however small this chance is), but then we have the governement with the same ability of the crackers - they can unlock your files. Granted not legally unless you are arrested etc, but if the wrong person got hold of the key etc..

Just seems like a bad idea to me..

[Taz]

Why don't we just give the government a spare key to our homes so they can come and go as they please?!

[iranu]

What is also so sinister about this is that this particular government is very good at producing legislation supposedly to help in the fight against terrorism then using those same laws to impede the freedoms and privacy of it's law abiding citizens.

If the pc user is online, the relevant government agency, with that backdoor key could access all your files without you knowing about it. Wouldn't take much for a rogue employee of the government accessing all your password for your bank account, paypal account, credit card details and having a bit of fun at your expense.

Whilst I understand that it is important for law agencies to be able to gather information I do not trust this government to put sufficient safeguards in the legislation to prevent abuse.

[RVF500]

if you want to use evidence on pc against someone then sieze the hardware and let your ubergeeks loose on it in a lab. Should crack it no problem. If you want to spy online against someone outside UK jurisdiction then either get the relevant order from the nation where the possible offender is or back off because you can't do anything anyway.

The phrase Orwellian has been used to describe this govt. It's getting scarily truer day by day. Let's see how long it takes for someone to misuse the new anti-terror legislation. Stopwatches ready?

[Spud1]

if you want to use evidence on pc against someone then sieze the hardware and let your ubergeeks loose on it in a lab. Should crack it no problem.

Not true, some of the really strong encryption methods have massive keys that could take millions of years to brute force even with supercomputers. Ok so you could get lucky and hit within a year or so but it's unlikely. 10 years ago (probably less) and sure you could do it, but even a standard 8 letter alphanumeric password made of random digits/symbols can take days to get a hit brute forcing (dictionary attacks are no good unless it's a passphrase ). So imagine how long it would take for a passkey thats hundreds of characters long..not easy.

[TheAnimus]

RVF500 it depends how clever the person has been, if they've been running with no page file, and used well designed encryption software then the experts can't do much.

However, most "naughty" people aren't computer experts, and don't understand measures that are in place, a classic was a nonse who'd done a good job with his encrypted volume, he was one of the "know it all linux pushers" who had no understanding that a page file would actually retain a copy of the image (because the program he was using to view it had been, been cached, as such a decrypted version had been in the swap file, and paginated).

The master key problem..... I would hate to be near that key is all i can say, think what preasures are put on people to get information, the value of the key, Billions. How many innocent people would someone kill to manipulate someone who has access to the key.

[Atomic]

All that will happen if the gov get a backdoor is a thirdparty company in another country will provide a version without the backdoor and companies will use that...

[RedPutty]

So imagine how long it would take for a passkey thats hundreds of characters long..not easy.

never mind that, how long would it take you to type in each time

The problem with backdoors is what do you do when a "bad guy" gets hold of them.

[badass]

Not true, some of the really strong encryption methods have massive keys that could take millions of years to brute force even with supercomputers. Ok so you could get lucky and hit within a year or so but it's unlikely. 10 years ago (probably less) and sure you could do it, but even a standard 8 letter alphanumeric password made of random digits/symbols can take days to get a hit brute forcing (dictionary attacks are no good unless it's a passphrase ). So imagine how long it would take for a passkey thats hundreds of characters long..not easy.

You need to learn a little more about encryption before commenting
The keys used to encrypt may be long, but where are those keys stored?
On the HDD!
But surely that means anyone can get them?
Not so, as the keys are encrypted.
Using what I hear you say?
The users windows password. There is the weak link. You do a brute force or dictionary attack on the file that holds the key. (its stored in the crypto folder in the users profile)

Another thing to bare in mind. I'll quote my little brother "Criminals aren't actually that smart. They still haven't learned to use gloves when burgling"

[shiato storm]

surely if a 'backdoor' was created someone would kick up a fuss its in breach of human rights or privacy or some such ideal and would find a way to stop it. there would be software hacks released that would stop any backdoor access too...probably released by some russians but used by all. in the end the gov. would see inside their small minded ideas that really its cr*p. just like their turn around on the no smoking bill...well, its still not going to happen for a good while though is it? this gov is rubbish, and they're screwing us over. hard.

[Spud1]

fair point but isn't the sam file (assuming we are talking about the same thing here) also a pain in the ass to decrypt? I know that replacing it is easy enough, but I thought that actually obtaining the password from it was just as difficult requiring a long attack again..i'm probably wrong here and if so would be interested to know more

got any links you can point me to?

oh and the crimials thing? Criminals who get caught are not usually that smart no, but the clever ones don't get caught...

[jimborae]

You need to learn a little more about encryption before commenting
The keys used to encrypt may be long, but where are those keys stored?
On the HDD!
But surely that means anyone can get them?
Not so, as the keys are encrypted.
Using what I hear you say?
The users windows password. There is the weak link. You do a brute force or dictionary attack on the file that holds the key. (its stored in the crypto folder in the users profile)

Another thing to bare in mind. I'll quote my little brother "Criminals aren't actually that smart. They still haven't learned to use gloves when burgling"

Hmm well what about hard disk encryption software that you need authenticate yourself to before loading & logging onto Windows. e.g. Pointsec, which we use at work inconjunction with RSA tokens to authenticate. Surely then the Windows logon details are encrypted & the Pointsec password inconjunction with the rsa token should be strong enough. Plus brute force attack shouldn't work because you get locked out after 3 failed attempts.

[G4Z]

Right, going to clarify a few technical issues here.

Vista will be part of the Trusted computing scheme aka treacherous computing


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing


The key will be stored on a chip on the board in hardware (encrypted with AES) and the idea is not so much that it will protect your files (although it will) its that the system can validate any software that runs. Part of this will be the implementation of DRM and I belive the whole thing will tie in with the new Blu Ray and HD-DVD formats.

The idea being that if not every device in the chain supports the HDCP protocol (and another form of CSS on the disk) it will not allow it to be viewd at full res.
Further it will have the funcionality to "brick" any blacklisted devices.

So you compromise your key and use that to play copied media, your system phones home, keys dont match anymore or ther realise you tampered with it and bang, your shiny new mobo is a brick. The idea is that this will extend to Displays, DVD players, set top boxes... the works.

A truely evil thing for more reasons than I stated, check out the wiki for more info.

The govt wanting a backdoor seems entirely in line with everything else they have been doing, do you know that you can now be forced to hand over an encrytion key, if you dont you can be prosecuted?

This is not really a shocker, and I would be surprised if they dont get a backdoor. I have been a windoze user for many years and Im seriously considering switching to Linux, the only thing holding me back is the games support.

[Knoxville]

ridiculous tbh, the government already has the right to request the key to any encryption over 128bit for criminal investagations now, all this does is leave the average user more vunerable.

[badass]

fair point but isn't the sam file (assuming we are talking about the same thing here) also a pain in the ass to decrypt? I know that replacing it is easy enough, but I thought that actually obtaining the password from it was just as difficult requiring a long attack again..i'm probably wrong here and if so would be interested to know more

got any links you can point me to?

oh and the crimials thing? Criminals who get caught are not usually that smart no, but the clever ones don't get caught...

Technically the SAM file is undecryptable, but in reality it is. I dont know how they get around it TBH as in a standard config, the passwords aren't actually stored, a hash of the password is stored, and every time you type the password is typed in, what you type is hashed and windows compares the hashes. I guess to reverse engineer the password, they do a dicttionary style attaack by just hashing loads of words and somparing the hash to the one in the SAM.
My point was that instead of trying a brute force attack on a 128 bit key, you are brute forcing the password - the weakest link and a lot easier then the key itself
There was a really good article in PCW magazine a few years ago and it actually explained public key encryption back to first principles - complete with maths and everything. They managed to fit the guts of it on a 2 page spread. I dont have any links to hand but it might be worth giving www.howstuffworks.com a look and a google.

Oh and point taken about the criminals.

[badass]

Hmm well what about hard disk encryption software that you need authenticate yourself to before loading & logging onto Windows. e.g. Pointsec, which we use at work inconjunction with RSA tokens to authenticate. Surely then the Windows logon details are encrypted & the Pointsec password inconjunction with the rsa token should be strong enough. Plus brute force attack shouldn't work because you get locked out after 3 failed attempts.

Do you think they log onto the PC to try the passwords?
They get the encrypted data off the HDD in its entirety and run their attacks on that using their own software. It doesn't matter if the software says you can only try 3 times, they dont use the original software so they can brute force it. Of course that does mean they have to break the HDD encryption and then the windows encryption but its still doable.