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About LinkBacksTeepee, I suppose it is because I dont see it as an argument, they dont mix evolution is science and creationism/ID isn't.
Simple as that.
Teepee, I suppose it is because I dont see it as an argument, they dont mix evolution is science and creationism/ID isn't.
Simple as that.
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no, it is to abandon what secular science knows of the situation currently.Originally Posted by TeePee
for example, in THIS day and age, I know of people who have been raised from the dead; I have seen people with limbs grow back; I have watched and seen people suddenly speak fluently in languages they have never studied / read / desired to study, and have that language translated perfectly by a native speaker (Cantonese recently, for example)
science has no explanation. The naysayers will argue that such events never happened in the first place. That is your perogative.
Simply put, do you refuse to believe there is anything outside of Science?
science only has no explanation if you don't understand science.
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there is PLENTY of evidence, but it is not obvious to you. Do you really think Christians are just gullible, brainwashed people, who willfully surrender all critical faculties in order to accept their faith? If so, you have been speaking to the wrong people. It's easy to stereotype people who one never engages with personally. Go off to Oxford (for example), where I could easily find you many Christians with awesome critical reasoning abilities who could argue anyone on this forum into the ground, and without getting preachy or arrogant about it. I can provide you with telephone numbers, in fact.
my quotes were not directed at you. As such, they will fail to impress, which I fully appreciate.Fuddam, stop quoting the bible, seriously it does not help you make any points you just sound like an evangelist.
I can't disprove your FSM, nor prove my God (which incidentally I have not tried to do anyway), but I can ask you many rational questions concerning your belief in the FSM, your justifications, your authority to state the FSM is the supreme being etc. I can use my mind, which is why that good book says:You still have not provided me with an answer as to why your bible text is true and my Flying spaghetti monster menu text isn't. The reason is because you cant, you cant disprove my FSM any more than I can disprove your god.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength
Mark 12:30
Just the existence of the many denominations in Christianity is plenty evidence for the non-conformist nature of Christianity. Of course there can be unconstructive division between those same denominations, which I do not condone, but there is certainly active and ongoing debate over meaning, over interpretation, over who is speaking truth and who is barking up the wrong tree - all within Christianity, let alone between it and other systems of belief (including atheism). Even my pastors have actively encouraged me to NOT accept their word for it, when they make statements in church, but to seek out the truth for myself.
That is how Christianity keeps a check on itself, through its use of the RATIONAL as well as the spiritual guidance of the Holy Spirit.
(you at the back, stop laughing)
So, can someone justify the FSM beyond making a simple statement that it exists?
alright, using your current knowledge of science, explain
1) someone being raised from the dead
2) a limb growing back within seconds - upon request, too
3) perfect knowledge of a language never studied / read / desired
by the way, to quote myself, I stated what secular science knows of the situation currently - quite magnanimous, I thought.
Secular science.. You mean science that follows the scientific method, rather than what? Religious doctrine passed off as pseudo-science?
Acknowledging the supernatural is to abandon not only what science knows, but also to declare that no scientific explanation can ever exist, which is against the whole purpose of science. This is why religion should not be taught in science lessons.
I refuse to believe there is anything without an explanation, although there are many things unexplained. I don't believe in the supernatural, santa, jesus or the easter bunny.
No. When it comes to religion, most are brainwashed as children, and so never apply any critical faculties they have to their religion.
1) Either not really dead but catatonic, or mass hysteria/hypnosis.
2) Party trick, I bet Paul Daniels could do this. Did you pay any money to watch or make a donation afterward?
3) Tongues? I can speak in tongues...
Touché. There's a reason why I'm no longer a Christian these days, after all...
Anyway - In order;
Fuddam - Define: God, Create and Exist. If God created everything that exists then he must have created himself. Once again you're pulling self-contradictory quotes from the Bible and interpreting them out of context. You still havn't replied to my criticisms of the last time you did that.
Teepee - I would suggest that omnipotence is not necessarily relevant and that it's an assumption (and rather unfounded at that), rather than a necessity. I still don't understand why you think that belief in a God (which I will leave undefined for the minute) precludes scientific reasoning. I'd appreciate an example as I genuinely don't understand your reasoning.
TheAnimus - If you can't contribute anything useful then don't bother at all. Exactly what are you trying to prove with your contributions, other than that we know nothing and you know even less?
G4z - I'm attempting to prove, in a rather roundabout way, that belief in a deity is not necessarily incompatible with a rigorous scientific method and that both could co-exist in school. The lack of scientific rigour in the pro-science camp here is making that suprisingly difficult!
1) they probably wern't dead, a friend who was training to be a nurse actually head one of thouse happen to her. The body had been pronounced dead, and was in a corridor waiting to go down to the morge. His skin had even turned blue. He woke up. That was described to her as hybernation, a not all to un-common phenomina
2) I had "intermet relations" with a girl, and my penis was the first she'd ever seen. Seeing how the size changes quite so drastically, as well as tension, for someone who'd been brought up in such a sheilded manner, i could of told her that was coursed by god. (I mean not wishing to be vulgar, but a penis is quite amazing how it goes sotense only to deflate.
3) There are many types of learning in this world. Not all require the trainiee to realise its happening. Take my dislexia, its very hard to explain because we no so little about the human mind. Or an optical ollusion, do you mearly say there mirricals, or works of the devil. No we use science to explain whats going on.
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
Just got round to reading the whole of that one...
So, having said that - on a rational and axiomatic basis, construct Christianity. Explain why the Bible is inspired of God (moreso than any/all other religious texts) and indeed, what this God is.
I'm intrigued more than argumentative about this one by the way...
if you can say that you WERE a Christian but are no longer, I'd argue that it's likely you never were. To go to church, to practice a religion, even to believe that Christ is God does not make one a Christian
it is the ACCEPTANCE of Christ into one's heart that does it.
did you?
why? you are applying your linear timeline to God. Have you considered that it might not be appropriate?Fuddam - Define: God, Create and Exist. If God created everything that exists then he must have created himself.
no, that is your speciality. explain how my 2 quotes contradict myself. I am ignorant.Once again you're pulling self-contradictory quotes from the Bible and interpreting them out of context.
btw, I need to go back and see what you wrote. I'd left the thread for a while.
Well the purpose of the original annocdote was that this debate is a circluar reference. If you felt that was already known and apparent, i apologise for not picking up on it.
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
assumption. a very obvious response, that.
no real response so being facetious2) Party trick, I bet Paul Daniels could do this. Did you pay any money to watch or make a donation afterward?
really? again no real response.3) Tongues? I can speak in tongues...
edit: the sad thing is, if you REALLY wanted to witness such things, you could.
But, you won't, because it would amount to being vulnerable, and opening yourself to the faint possibility, however ludicrous, that Christianity IS true, and then you'd have to overturn your entire view of the world. You'd have to be prepared to take a massive risk, and most people don't like to do so.
Last edited by fuddam; 16-03-2006 at 12:46 AM.
Fuddam, before anybody goes explaining these things, perhaps you could provide some evidence, like at least a news report of these incidents?
I would imagine if these incidents were so amazing it would have made the news somewhere.
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