WW2:Eastern Front

[sparky191]

Originally posted by Russ
Prehaps you should stop reading books?

I get most of my facts from living people, people who were in the RAF and the Army at the time, as this is a better source then any book, written 40 years later by a chap who's readin from another book.

Why are your facts wrong then? Also you are assuming that of ALL of the books I've read none of them were written by people who were there. Thats a rather large assumption and also very incorrect.

Russian loss of life was high, but it was due to their own poor tactics as well as the germans.

The German war machine and its tactics were the most modern at the time, which is why they were so successful. Most other countries had out of date technology and inferior tactics. As for the English Channel, yes it could be argued that it stopped the germans from invading, but then again its not like Hitler didn't know it was there. He could have prepared for an invasion earlier and not stopped. But then I don't think he expected to get to the channel as quick as he did. But then he had very little military insight. His bomber force was unsuitable for an extended stragetic bombing campaign and his fighters didn't have the range to stay over the UK for long. So he couldn't keep up the pressure on the UK. He also didn't have the sea power required to sustain an invasion either. The British Navy would have prevented resuppy from the sea so how would he have sustained the invasion force. When you look at the facts it wasn't really that well thought out.

[Bindibadgi]

Originally posted by Russ
ooh and to quote Stalin "one death is a tradgey, a million deaths is a statistic"

Or:

"One death is murder, a million is a revolution"

Hmm.

[bouncin]

The russian,s were bigger monsters than the germans if u all read so much and know so many facts i wont even need to explain but if you want me to just ask.

There is no such thing in a war as murder it is just a very sad statistic but there was a lot of murder in berlin for 2 weeks after the second world war.

[sparky191]

Originally posted by bouncin
The russian,s were bigger monsters than the germans if u all read so much and know so many facts i wont even need to explain but if you want me to just ask.

There is no such thing in a war as murder it is just a very sad statistic but there was a lot of murder in berlin for 2 weeks after the second world war.

No doubt. Not too disimilar to the German Army when it was in Russia though.

[bouncin]

when the german army was in russia they were at war !

[RicardoSmith]

Originally posted by bouncin
when the german army was in russia they were at war !

Please explain how is one evil is "bigger" than the other.

[bouncin]

when the war was over the germans didnt go on a pointless rampage murdering and raping women and children.
the germans also didnt shoot there own troops who were proven to have showen cowardice in battle.

and then you can retorte with yeah but the germans killed millions of jews but germany didnt really do that hitler and a select few troops were the only ones who knew what was going on in the camps such as auschwitz. most german troops had no idea of the kind of things that went on.

whereas it wasnt the russian commanders who went on a rampage after the war it was the troops. Therefore german troops were on the whole fighting for a cause. but the russian,s were animals

ne1 doing the things russian,s were doing should not have been treated as war criminals they should have been tried for murder 1st degree. AS THE WAR WAS OVER

[RicardoSmith]

Actually I would have brought up the example of Germans burning, raping and pillaging their way across Russia, murdering whole villages along the way. Which is what turned the local population against them. It also played into Russian propaganda which fed into the Russians desire for revenge.

The Russians didn't discourage their troops from murder and rape since the idea was that it would terrorise the defending germans into fleeing/surrender, but in actual fact it made them defend harder. The Russian soldiers had been conditioned that when they got to German they would have revenge for all the attrocities done on Russian soil. Once you have created a monster like this its not something you can turn off overnight.

In fact this idea of rape and pillage of a defeated foe is as old as war itself. Was used to pacify the local population in the years to come and to inter breed the army with the local population.

I think its a bit much to call the Russian soldiers animals. I think the Nazi term was sub human and an idea the Germans encouraged in their own propaganda, which indirectly helped encourage the attrocities in Russia.

The main body of the soviet army was very uneducated and came from very basic living conditions in Russia. But I don't how that has any bearing on what happened in Germany. Better educated armies in the past have done the same thing, and indeed if the Russian Army had wanted to stop what happened it could have done so. It choose not to.

As for the Germans fighting for a cause. Yes they were invading another country having broken a treaty with it, and they were led and thus supporting the Nazi Party, who were elected into power. The victimisation of Jews before the war was well known and a large amount of the population, in Germany and indeed in other countries too agreed with. So I don't think you can claim that it came as a total shock nor that the average German soldier knew nothing or was completely uninvolved from the attrocities in occupied countries. Some maybe. But not all.

So what was the "just cause" I can't see any?

[spazman]

Originally posted by Russ
i've read numerous stories of italian special forces who carried out missions AGAINST th germans after they had surenderred.

The Itallians are hard done too, the french were worse, surrendered and left every bridge, road, canal, sub pen, tank facitlity intact, and with a big ribbon saying "to adolf", stupid really

The french had enough man power and fire power to repell the german invasion. France had twice as many tanks as the germans when they invaded!!! However, being big nancys they didnt and the were too stubborn to bleive that the germans could advance through 'inpenarable' area. To be honest war isnt something the french have ever been that great at, napoleon bucked that trend (a bit) but we spanked him hard.

[RicardoSmith]

Originally posted by spazman
The french had enough man power and fire power to repell the german invasion. France had twice as many tanks as the germans when they invaded!!! However, being big nancys they didnt and the were too stubborn to bleive that the germans could advance through 'inpenarable' area. To be honest war isnt something the french have ever been that great at, napoleon bucked that trend (a bit) but we spanked him hard.

Their lovers not fighters....

Lots of frenchies fought with honor the allies in all theatres of the war. It was poor leadship, tactics and planning that was to blame with the defeat in France. They still were thinking as if it was WWI all over.

[bouncin]

I never said just cause i said cause. i also think ur whole post was based on what you think germany did in the war not actual facts. The german Army gave the russian,s a chance to defect at every chance they could as they thought russia would be a gr8 allie.

and i have got to laugh at the fact the you would consider any true nazi would interbreed. thats just laughable.

and on ur statement that raping and pillaging is part of war i think ur mistaken or american we have had a moral obligation during the last 100 years to respect other races thats why the second world war started. Were not vikings or on the crusades

and why are you opposed to the fact that some1 capable of murdering or raping in peace time is an animal.

[bouncin]

I never said just cause i said cause. i also think ur whole post was based on what you think germany did in the war not actual facts. The german Army gave the russian,s a chance to defect at every chance they could as they thought russia would be a gr8 allie.

and i have got to laugh at the fact the you would consider any true nazi would interbreed. thats just laughable.

and on ur statement that raping and pillaging is part of war i think ur mistaken or american we have had a moral obligation during the last 100 years to respect other races thats why the second world war started. Were not vikings or on the crusades

and why are you opposed to the fact that some1 capable of murdering or raping in peace time is an animal.

[RicardoSmith]

Originally posted by bouncin
I never said just cause i said cause. i also think ur whole post was based on what you think germany did in the war not actual facts. The german Army gave the russian,s a chance to defect at every chance they could as they thought russia would be a gr8 allie.

and i have got to laugh at the fact the you would consider any true nazi would interbreed. thats just laughable.

and on ur statement that raping and pillaging is part of war i think ur mistaken or american we have had a moral obligation during the last 100 years to respect other races thats why the second world war started. Were not vikings or on the crusades

and why are you opposed to the fact that some1 capable of murdering or raping in peace time is an animal.

You thinking what I'm thinking would be mind reading. Can you really do that wow!. What am I thinking now....

Sorry what cause then did they have for invading russia?
If its not a "just cause" what kind of a cause is it?

Why would russians defect to an invading army and why would russia want to be allies with germany? That doesn't make sense.

I never said the Nazi did it. I was saying that its been a common activity in wars, and this case the russians were doing it, perhaps no intentionally but thats the end result. Theres been lots of wars in the last 100 years, even in the last 10 years where mass rape has been common. Africa, eastern europe etc etc.

The point I was making was that Anti-Semitism was widespread before the war, not just in Germany. So how the germany army would be unaware of it seems unlikely.

You seem to think there are moral rules in war or indeed any rules. Thats rarely the case. Rules are dictated by the victor.

You didn't specify which Russian were animals you just said the Germans were fighting for a cause (what ever that means) and that russian soldiers were animals. I didn't say that I thought murders and rapists were animals. But now that you mention it does murder and rape in wartime not count then? Is that why its ok if the germans did it?

[bouncin]

the germans were fighting for a cause the cause being world domination and for the soldiers themselves to represent the first level of a master race.
everything has a cause whether it be just or unjust.

i am not a mind reader i read what you put in ur posts when some1 puts there thoughts down in words. its just called reading not mind reading.

"Why would russians defect to an invading army and why would russia want to be allies with germany? That doesn't make sense"

i never said that the russian,s did defect i said they were offered the chance to and i also never said the russian,s wanted to be allies with germany.

i may not be a mind reader but there is better chance of that than you becoming my voice so read what i said b4 saying i said it

twisting words to ur advantage wont help the fact that the war was over when the russian,s did these things.
"But now that you mention it does murder and rape in wartime not count then? Is that why its ok if the germans did it?"

No its not called murder in war its called a statistic and im totally with you that rape is a bad thing from either side during or out of war.

as i can also tell from the words you have written that this arguement will soon turn into some kind of personal vendeta i will end it here.

i am not defending the germans actions during the war im just outraged at the actions of the russians after the war.

[RicardoSmith]

Pity I was enjoying that.

I assume you've been reading The Berlin book by Antony Beevor. which covers the subject of the mass rapes after the war in detail.

[bouncin]

nah m8 i just watch the history channel lol

but honestly you put forward a good argument and opened my eyes to a few things although i still think the russians were just as bad as the germans

hope i did not cause offence with any thing i said