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Its our toleration which is allowing ball games such as israils, from the information i read on beeb/ch4 un-provoked abolition of the secse fire. Thats bad, because we let them get away with one step removed from genercide.
no, they are not.
Its our toleration which is allowing ball games such as israils, from the information i read on beeb/ch4 un-provoked abolition of the secse fire. Thats bad, because we let them get away with one step removed from genercide.
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While the self-righteous delusions of the settlers and others on the Zionist right-wing are intensely aggravating and a major stumbling block on the road to peace, they're no match for the sickening hatred and sheer disregard for the lives of their own children that has developed on the Palestinian side over the past decade. The depserate measures that Hamas invoked to wreck the Oslo peace accords have reaped a bitter harvest in the occupied territories.Originally Posted by TheAnimus
So yes, at the start of the 90s they were just two bickering tribes from the same part of the world. But now, there's a darkness to the perversion of religion that has permeated Islam that will be difficult to eradicate.
Iran orchestrated the whole thing to take away the focus of the G8 summit who were going to discuss it's nuclear programme. Unfortunately Israel couldn't wait a week before commencing their operations.
For met he only solution to the middle east problem is all out war. The second world war sorted out Germany and Japan once and forall. We no longer have the threat from those militarised countries and they have changed fundamentally for the better.
Only when Iran and Syria (and any other militant Islamic country) are completely decimated to the same extent that Japan and Germany were after WWII will there come a consensus to rebuild and not go back to the dark ages of militant, radical Islam. It is a terrible price to pay but one that must be payed and one where we must come out on the winning side. Otherwise this "conflict" is going to drag on and on as as the hatred has now been well and truly indoctrinated in to the people of the middle east.
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You're making the mistake of thinking that we'll end up fighting a proper army here. We won't. It'll be a guerilla war that will drag on forever. Take a look at Iraq and Afghanistan both of which could be argued were "decimated" by the allies and as such, according to your argument should have rolled over and begged. Such a shame that noone told the terrorist/ freedom fighters that.... The same would happen in any Mid East country.
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It's a mess. That area of land has been a mess for over 2000 years, perhaps nearer 3000. It will never be conflict free.
Despariation, bitter memories, sense of retribution, religious ideology - it's all combined in a horrible pot. Both sides are beyond the boundaries of reasonable thought - it's too simplistic to think you can just sit them down and ask them to be reasonable. Wealth and development (in Isreal's case) don't lessen that to any extent.
It's obvious when you visit the place. People seem perfectly respectful and intelligent until you get them on the subject and then they transform before your eyes - it's almost like it's been bred into them. I've never met a Hizbollah or Hamas fighter, but I wouldn't be surprised if they also feel the same sense of utter justice in trying to obliterate their enemies.
History will only tell if we could have done anything better to help the situation, but it's hard to help in both cases - if you take the moral high ground the Israelis just think you aren't worth talking to. Perhaps, some people argue, it's better to try and stay on good terms so that you can at least influence them a little, which is better than not at all. It could be the same with the Arabs - I'm not sure about Iran, but there are moderate Arab states who might still be involved because trying to influence and gaining even a little change is better than giving them totally free reign.
If war would of solved it, surely it would of all been fine after the 60s.
Israil are been so stupid, which is what amazes me when you think how much of a good reputation israil has in the R&D area how incredibly stupid they are at politics. Yet their doing something akin to political suicide, they just seam to not care what the world percives them to be. Iran on the other hand is playing superb games of manipulation.
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TheAnimus, Israel cares more about the welfare of it's citizens than what people think of it.
Israel has been fighting for its very survival for 60 years, and it will continue doing anything necessary towards that end. The Israeli-Palestinian-Opportunist 3rd party conflict is enormously complex, and people make mistakes. But Israel has made no mistake on the 'let's occupy Iraq and impose democracy because Saddam dissed my daddy' scale.
Pfft, Iran and its leaders are utter neophytes, and crippled at that. If you want to observe the true leaders you need to look at the Chinese. There's a reason that the US is the 'big nasty' in Islamic political mythology despite the fact that China has done as much or more to repress islamic political religiosity. The reason is that China is much more effective at it and Islamic leaders are scared of them.Iran on the other hand is playing superb games of manipulation.
They might care about it a lot, but they have no idea of HOW to achieve their goal. They want to exterminate terrorism, but all they do is create new terrorists by killing innocent civilians, crippling the (almost non-existent) palestinian economy through blockades and destroying any infrastructure they can destroy. I know a lebanese family who has been there about a week ago. From what I've heard, Israel is just blindly bombing cities and small towns. This only creates more hate and more terrorists.
I believe it was Ghandi who once said "an eye for an eye eventually makes the whole world blind."
Think about that.
Last edited by ThaChronic; 06-08-2006 at 10:15 AM.
ThaChronic, terrorists can create terrorists if they want, terrorism against Israel was around before it even existed. Terrorists will use any excuse to get more terrorists, if you take away one excuse by giving them what they want they make up another ones.
The Palestinian economy has been crippled more by people like Yasser Arafat than Israel, after Israel took the West Bank following an attack from Jordan in the 6 day war (1967) the standard of living shot up, the number of schools and hospitals increased many times over. Arafat barely spent a penny on his people, instead he decided to do things like build armies in South Lebanon and fund terrorist organisations. The main reason why there's 100's of people in refugee camps is because the PA likes to keep them there for good television. Considering amount of aid they have recieved over the years the standard of living should be higher, even though it's actually higher than a large number of middle eastern countries.
These blockades and such didn't exist before people decided it would be a good idea to blow themselves up, Palestinians used to come in to Israel quite freely before the intafada.
Suicide bombers are regularly caught as a result of the action taken by Israel, it just doesn't make the news over here.
The people who are being blindly bombed are the people of North Israel, the ketyusha rockets are aimed at civillian areas, my uncles house had a rocket land next to it recently, they aren't very sophisticated but if you fire enough of them some will hit, and when they hit they are very destructive. The Israelis are not blindly bombimg cities, that is why they have sophisticated laser targeting missiles and the like. Israel could quite easily just flatten Lebanon, and it might appear like they have on the news but it doesn't make good television to show the parts that haven't been detroyed.
The main difference between an Israel and HIzbollah is this; If Israel hit's an innocent civillian it's a failure for Israel and a piece of proganda for Hizbolla. If Hizbollah hit's an innocent civillan it's a cause for celebration for Hizbolla and a time for mourning in Israel.
Last edited by krazy_olie; 06-08-2006 at 12:18 PM.
I just want to throw somthing into the mix here, Israel has been using the terrorism angle to further its own agenda imho. It seems to be popular opinion that "not all muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are muslims" at the moment and I just think its worth putting some perspective to this. Isreal was partly founded on terrorism : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
I am not condoning terrorism here, but there was a time when for at least some Zionists it was a legitimate form of combat. These "terrorists" are woefully outgunned here, the Israelis hold all the cards as far as I can see and they are the only ones who can stop this from further escelation. Israel is not fighting for its existance any more, that ended with the 6 day war. There are no rivals to isreal in that area (who have the 4th biggest army on earth), they are not fighting for survival at all. The response to the kidnaping has been well out of proportion to the original transgression by hizbollah. There is a track record of prisoner exchanges in that kind of situation, hizbolla demanded the release of prisoners israel has in exchange for the soilders. Instead Isreal endangers the lives of the 2 captured soilders and many more with this attack. It is not logical, there is a bigger agenda here although I am not convinced its a simple land grab.
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Krazy_olie, I didn't say Israel created terrorism, although that's partially true. I just say that what Israel is doing only makes it worse.
You say that the standard of living was higher when Israel occupied the West Bank. That's true, but that's because there were more rich Israelian people living in the West Bank back then, they took the country, build infrastructure, let Palestinians work for them, and got rich of it. Some Palestinians didn't like it and stood up against this injustice. Then the Israelians retaliated with great force. The terrorists saw they couldn't match that power, so they went underground and started attacking civilians. Israel didn't know how to stop this first and also started attacking civilians. And things got way out of control...
I might be simplifying a little bit, but here's one fact that speaks for itself: Israel has caused the death of many times more Palestinians then the amount of Israelis that have been killed by Palestinians.
You also say that Israel has sophisticated laser guided missiles and such, then I have to conclude that the Israelian government is deliberately killing innocent refugees and civilians and destroying hospitals, farms and factories. A good friend of mine told me that almost all the houses in their hometown were destroyed, and he assured me the people living there had no time to launch rockets on Northern Israel, they were too busy trying to stay alive. The Hezbollah reacts like a rat who's trapped in a corner, just attacking blindly and hoping it's enough to scare away the attacker.
Excuse my English, it's not my native language.
Well my dad was in the Israeli army and I have met many other Israeli soldiers I can assure you that it is absoloutely not targeting civillians, the "human shield" tactics of Hizbollah mean that civillian casualties are tragically very high. I don't blame you for coming to this conclusion, it's exactly what Hizbollah want you to think.
There are reports that Hizbollah have actually set up road blocks to prevent civillians escaping, they tell the civillians to stay in the civillian areas knowing full well that they will be targeted. They then make up the number of deaths and say that none of them were Hibollah, thye make a bad situation seem even worse.
Qana was of course tragic and the IDF rightly apologized, they would not have targeted that building if they knew there were civillians inside it, but Hizbollah try to make it seem worse by almost doubling the actual number of deaths and setting up camera shots of dead children. Also Hizbollah are not reacting to anything, they have been carrying out attacks on Israel for years but they crossed the line
RE the King David bombing, I don't condone this in any way, and neither did the Hagannah, which was the main Jewish authority at the time. The Irgun group who carried this out, and indeed the Deir Yessin attack, were terrorists and again you will find that very few zionists would condone these attacks. There are still unfortunately hard right zionists arguably bordering on terrorists in Israel, but they are controlled unlike the terrorists in the West Bank and Gazza which are supposed to be controlled by the Palestinian police but seeing as they don't do a very good job Israel has to do something.
The Palestinian people themselves were not annoyed at Israelis for creating jobs for them, the authorities pumped them full of lies and propaganda like they are the original people of the land when 2 years earlier they were Jordanian, and many older Palestinians would agree that biggest problem was Yasser Arafat, his attempts to bring down Israel and refusal to accept peace. It's certainly not a reason to blow up a pizza bar.
The reasons that less Israelis die than Palestinians are... Israel prevents terrorist attacks on a regular basis, thus reducing the number of deaths. Terrorists hide among civillian areas, they care more about destroying Israel, and it's public image, than they do about protecting their own people. Palestinian terrorists have killed their own people, in the first intafada more Palestinians were killed by Palestinians than clashes with the IDF. Also by that logic the Brittish were the bad guys in WW2 because more Germans died than Birttish.
The day the PA cares more about it's people than the destruction of Israel is the day we can work towards peace.
G4Z, what is a proportionate response to 100s of rockets flying in at civillian areas? It is the policy of most countries to not negotiate with terrorists, for the reasons that it just causes more and more kidnapping. Seeing as Hizbollah have a chapter in their charter explaining the important of the destruction of Israel it can't be allowed to operate near the border, Israel doesn't want a war but if it's civillians are targeted it's sure as hell going to do something about it, just like any normal country would.
ok, 2 things.
Firstly it says in that article that is has been shown that Hagannah ordered that bombing and then comdemned it in public.
Secondly, there were no rockets flying until Isreal let rip. This is all (apparently) about kidnapped soilders remember? This was not started because of hizbollah fireing rockets.
Not taking sides here, but those are the facts.
They may be commited to destroying Israel but how do i know thats not just US and Israeli progaganda (or even Iranian propaganda for internal reasons)? they might be willing to negociate, in the last few years since Israel pulled out of Lebannon it seems that Hizbollah/Iran has more or less stayed out of it. I could be wrong on that, but I dont remember seeing any reports.
At the end of WW2 Japan made similar statements about never surrender, years later it turns out they were looking for a secret surrender deal before the US nuked Hiroshima.
HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY
Krazy_olie, I don't have the time right now to say everything I want to say, but here are a few things. First off, you say that it's the Hezbollah's fault that Israel attacks civilians. I agree it is a horrendous tactic to hide between you own people, but that doesn't give Israel the right to attack civilians.
Secondly, you talk about WW2, this just doesn't make sense, that was a totally different situation and I have no idea why you just count the British casualties and don't add up those of all the allied forces.
I don't buy the whole " they are hiding behind citizens" because that is just a way of justify killing innocence without being held accountable and it simply doesn't make sense logically. Of course we the ignoramus public will go along with it.. Frankly it sounds as absurd as "pre-emptive" attack.
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Last edited by pp05; 07-08-2006 at 01:32 AM.
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